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Terrorism Bill

No. I said exactly what I meant. I condemn anyone who advocates the blowing-up of buses or any attack on civilians. The Bill, however, does not just include such acts but any act of political violence. As I said, I am worried that someone could be locked up for suggesting that Palestinian political violence is justified. We should debate that, as only a few weeks ago an Israeli general accused of war crimes—whether justifiably or not, I do not know—was discreetly spirited out of the UK to avoid an arrest warrant. There have even been rumours of unofficial diplomatic apologies to Israel for any embarrassment that may have been caused. I am not condoning in any way the use of terrorist violence in the west bank or Gaza. Indeed, I spend a great deal of time arguing with people who do so because I think that such arguments are a worthwhile exercise. I am told that conversations that others and I have had may have played a part, albeit a small one, in helping to achieve certain ceasefires. But what the Bill tells me is that there is no place for that kind of dialogue. It asks me as a legislator to criminalise someone not for committing the act of violence, but for offering an opinion that may seek to justify it. By banning things or outlawing them, one will not necessarily stop them. If one talks to people who know about the dynamics of different forms of political Islam, they will say, and have said in meetings in this place, that the danger of clause 1 and related clauses—my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham) put it very well—is that they will end up grouping together those who support the use of violence to achieve limited political aims, even if I do not agree with those political aims, because they believe, perhaps wrongly, that there is no alternative, with those whose perverted and apocalyptic view of the world sees some kind of Zionist-crusader conspiracy as the root of all evil, and who say that any kind of slaughter anywhere in the world is justified to confront that supposed conspiracy. Are we more likely to save one more innocent life by lumping those two political outlooks together, or are we more likely to save lives if we are prepared to distinguish between them—between those whom we might just stand a chance of diverting from the path of violence, and those whom we simply have to fight? Those who incite, organise or commit the kind of atrocities that London experienced in July should be held to account for those crimes, but we also have a responsibility to try to help prevent similar atrocities from taking place in other countries. I realise that the argument that I am advancing may be unfashionable in some quarters. I am sure it would be unfashionable in the neo con world of US Patriot Acts or the easy division of the world into goodies and baddies, usually defined as goodies being ““us””, and baddies being ““them””. However, we also need to tackle the complex web of causes of grievances that end up leading—yes—even to the slaughter of civilians, whether by Governments, which I would condemn, or by terrorist groups, which I would equally condemn. We are in danger of making matters worse if we introduce laws that are so open-ended that they outlaw debate, even an uncomfortable debate, or are applied so selectively that they seem to be targeted on only one section of our community. My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mike Gapes) should realise that under the definitions in the Bill, if I, or anybody else, sought to justify Palestinian political violence, I would be caught by the Bill. If somebody stood up in the House and sought to justify the bulldozing of a Palestinian home suspected of harbouring terrorists by the Israeli army, they would be also be committing an offence under the Bill. In dealing with the problems in the middle east and working out how we can most effectively contribute to a just peace there, we can do rather better than trying to lock each other up because we happen to hold one view or another view. That is why I am profoundly worried about the first part of the Bill and related clauses. The Government will not get my support tonight. I may not vote against the Bill, but they will not get my support. I hope they will listen to the arguments and rethink the clause before Committee and Report, because it will do nothing to defeat the causes of terrorism, which is what we should aim to do.