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Government of Wales Bill (Programme) (No. 2)

I am slightly surprised by the Conservative position on the programme motion. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) says that she tried to ring me, but I was in Leicester, talking to my mum. Apparently, my three leadership candidates are also visiting my mother. I will have words to say about that later. Nevertheless, the concern is that she needed to speak not just with me but with the House before we voted on the programme motion initially. I do not want to make a very big thing of this, but I personally feel that if I support a programme motion, I am obliged to try to make it work. I certainly do not feel that I am in a position to come back and condemn the Government for a decision with which I originally concurred. The inference is that I made the same judgment as the Government on that occasion, which is why I supported the programme motion. I am sorry to say this because I have a lot of respect for the hon. Lady, but it feels a bit dog-in-the-manger to make a dramatic point of order at the end of the Committee stage to attempt to gain party political points in an environment in which we had considerable differences of view about the content of the Bill, but, to the best of my knowledge, a collective responsibility to make the timings work. The hon. Lady also asked why there are guillotines now. I do not think that she needs to look very far. Surely the Government, having been criticised in Committee for not having gone through the business, are bound to take away some of our latitude to operate autonomously. I cite the example of Northern Ireland legislation, which is continuously controversial, often involves constitutional matters and is extremely divisive to the House. Nevertheless, the Whip who is usually in charge of the business, the hon. Member for Gedling (Mr. Coaker), manages to secure a collective responsibility even at times when, for example, we underestimate the number of hours required in Committee. That occurred with the Northern Ireland (Offences) Bill, which was so controversial that the Government eventually withdrew it. However, there were no complaints about the timings, even though it became patently obvious to both sides that we had underestimated the time that we needed in Committee. Although I have never been that persuaded about the principle of programming, I have to accept that, in today’s environment, the House collectively, on a cross-party basis, has decided to impose programme motions from time to time, and this is one of those occasions. In the context of what we are considering today and tomorrow, it seems reasonable of the Government to have included the guillotines to ensure that important legislation is discussed. I appeal to all hon. Members and the Minister to ensure that we are sufficiently concise to handle the issues in the time available, because I agree with the hon. Lady that it would be a shame if any of the strings of amendments were abandoned through lack of time. That does not need to happen. We can rehearse the arguments concisely and effectively enough to get through everything that is to be debated, including the controversial elements. For that reason, if the hon. Lady insists on dividing the House, although I am lukewarm about programme motions, I will have little option other than to defend the Government. Question put:— The House divided: Ayes 279, Noes 148.