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Government of Wales Bill

I think that this is one of the most bizarre amendments that I have read, even from the Liberal Democratic Benches. To begin with I do not have the faintest idea of what constitutes an expert in this context. The Liberal Democrats are going to appoint six experts to recommend the sums of money. We are told that the Barnett formula needs a replacement. That is possibly so, although I am bound to say that in the days when I had responsibility as Secretary of State for Wales, I was very careful to sit silently while my Scottish colleagues were being chastised about the excessive rewards that went to Scotland under that formula in a changing situation. I was always well aware that, certainly in those days, Wales did rather well out of the Barnett formula, not least in the field of local government, where Welsh local authorities undoubtedly did extremely well. It may be that things altered later—my noble friend Lord Roberts of Conwy may tell me that it all changed after those days—but I would be very hesitant to rush too easily down this road, because some might argue for experts to be appointed to represent the English regions, such as the north-east. When I was in Cabinet, passionate cases used to be advanced that the north-east did particularly badly, certainly compared with Scotland, but also with Wales. If this amendment were accepted in its present form, we would get into a very interesting bidding war. I must say it would give me a certain amount of entertainment to see all these experts and various parts of the country going to meet the present Chancellor of the Exchequer. I think that he might give them rather a rough ride. He would certainly tell them that, if the experts wanted more, someone else would have to get less. Either the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have to find more, and presumably increase taxation or find some other solution, or the other departments of state would have to get less so that Wales got more. As it happens, I was having a conversation a littler earlier in the evening with my noble friend Lord Fowler, and we were looking back to the past. I always used to keep a very attentive eye on the way in which my noble friend, then Mr Normal Fowler, put his case for more resources for health and social services. I always hoped that he would do well, because I was aware that Wales got a formula share of everything extra that he got and that we would do rather well out of it, so he always had my support. Although I understand the desire of the noble Lord, Lord Livsey of Talgarth, to ensure that Wales gets its fair share—we would all like Wales to get more, if that is possible—I do not really think he has produced a solution or a formula that is likely to be acceptable to anyone or workable in any normal sense of the word.