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Government of Wales Bill

This is an important topic, and I am not surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, suggests that we might have a further debate on this issue. I will give him the assurances now, and he can dwell on them. I guess that he is likely to ask for them to become reassurances at a later stage of the Bill. But let us be absolutely clear: water flows from Wales to England, mainly in watercourses, and therefore safeguarding water is an issue for England, because of its dependence, to a degree, upon Wales, and not vice versa. The noble Lord, Lord Livsey, said that this is not an equally balanced power; of course it is not, because the facts of the situation are not equally balanced. That is the reason for the position. Let me be absolutely clear about what is sought. Of course the Government of Wales Act recognises that water is an issue that requires specific provision because of the cross-border nature of water catchments and water undertaker areas. At present, paragraph 6 of Schedule 3 to the Government of Wales Act provides a power of intervention by the Secretary of State in relation to relevant transferred environmental functions as defined there. The intervention power in Clause 151 re-frames the existing provision in the light of the expected enhancement of the legislative competence of the Assembly. So it follows what has obtained since 1998. Welsh Ministers have appellate and call-in functions in relation to the authorisation of discharge of pollution in certain waters. If use of the intervention power were under consideration—perhaps in relation to discharges from a significant industrial installation—the Secretary of State would have to make a judgment of whether such discharges, by their effects on rivers flowing into England, might have a serious impact on water quality there. If, having considered the circumstances, the Secretary of State had reasonable grounds for believing that there might be such an impact, he or she would have to decide whether to invoke the intervention powers. The Government expect only a remote possibility that the circumstances would occur where these intervention powers may have to be used. To date, the existing powers of intervention in the 1998 Act have never been used; nor has there been any suggestion that they might be used in the future. Any proposal that might risk triggering the intervention power in Clause 151 would in practice be discussed, and an agreed outcome would normally be reached, without the need for intervention. There is no reason to expect that the Welsh Ministers or others would use their executive powers irresponsibly and that the intervention power would need to be used other than as a last resort. Of course we need the last resort. It is an effective safeguard for the resources supply and quality of water in England. Given the crucial importance of water resources, of which we have become increasingly aware in the past few months, I do not believe that this Parliament would be adequately discharging its responsibilities to the people of England if it limited the Secretary of State’s potential role only to making representations, as the amendment suggests. In such circumstances of real threat to water supplies to England through misjudged activity, the Secretary of State could intervene to correct that situation. It would not be just a question of persuasion, although of course as the situation developed one could not conceive of anything else except the fullest discussion of these issues between the bodies concerned. But, if a successful resolution were not achieved, then the Secretary of State would have an obligation. The obligation is there under the original Government of Wales Act. This reinforces the position for the future, and I think that it is an immensely reasonable proposition.