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Government of Wales Bill

My Lords, I shall be as telegraphic as I can in responding to the various points raised during the debate. First, the Minister suggested that the Opposition are in some way against devolution. The noble Lord knows that to be untrue. We said repeatedly throughout the debates at Second Reading and in Committee that we are for devolution—for Part 4 of the Bill—provided that it is introduced by a referendum. We know why the Government will not hold a referendum in Wales: it is because they know that they would lose it. That is in terms what the Minister said on Report in another place. The noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, suggested that your Lordships’ House and another place should play no further part at stage two, following the decision of the Welsh Assembly to enact a measure, because neither another place nor your Lordships’ House had any part in formulating it. I suggest to the noble Lord that that is not a powerful argument. Whenever we have considered a draft statutory instrument, by either the negative or the affirmative procedure, we have had no role in formulating that instrument. That is entirely the task of the department that places it before us. We have had no influence on its content. All we can say is yes or no. I am always extremely attracted by the way in which the noble Lord makes his arguments but, with great respect to him, I do not think that the argument he advances for his cause holds any weight in this context.