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Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill

Perhaps I may speak to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Peyton of Yeovil, and those of the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth. So far as the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Peyton, is concerned, if the words ““criminal or otherwise”” were left out, the outcome would be exactly the same. I therefore agree with the noble Lord, Lord Peyton. But there may be a case that the Minister might wish to use, which is that if you use the words ““criminal or otherwise”” in the Bill, for the sake of three extra words you provide greater clarity and remove any doubt that some people might have that it did not apply to both criminal and civil sanctions. So there may be a case for it in terms of clarity, but otherwise I agree with the noble Lord. As for the proposals of the noble Lord, Lord Norton, for the reasons enunciated by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, it would be a very bad thing to go with his Amendment No. 13. There are numerous types of defences, both of the more serious type to which the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, referred and what are sometimes called statutory offences with modest fines imposed. There is a world of difference between them. But there is a great deal to be said for the more substantial point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Norton, under the other amendment, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart. I do not know whether the amendments are rightly worded, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response as much as any other noble Lord.