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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Monday, 3 July 2006, in the House of Lords.

Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill

Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill. Motion that the House resolves itself into a Committee debated and agreed to on question. Lords Committee stage first day. Clause 1 under consideration. Part 1 of 2 records.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
684 c12-70 
Session
2005-06
Department
Cabinet Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 684 c12-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not think we should agree to this Motion without further discussion. Given the histor...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c12 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Moved, Th...
Show all contributions (137)
Lord Desai | 684 c14-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not sure under what rubric we are having a Second Reading debate all over again. The ...
Earl of Onslow | 684 c14 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I strongly support my noble friend Lord Jenkin, because I have an extraordinarily strong f...
Lord Peyton of Yeovil | 684 c15 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not see that anybody has really answered my question; I hope that the noble Lord, Lor...
Lord Goodhart | 684 c15 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I agreed with much that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said, particularly on why the Governm...
Lord Richard | 684 c15-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have listened to what has been said so far with bewilderment. As I understood it, this B...
Lord Goodhart | 684 c57 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord sits down, I should point out to him that the amendment we are concerned with ...
Lord Borrie | 684 c57 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lord’s precise point, but I think it very unlikely that the interpretation of...
Lord Peyton of Yeovil | 684 c57 (Link to this contribution) The episode outside the Palace of Westminster in Parliament Square seems quite relevant to this. The...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 684 c58 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may help the noble Lord, Lord Peyton. It is not the forces of darkness that would be unlea...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c59 (Link to this contribution) It might be exactly the sort of thing such a person might look at, but of course it is a question of...
Lord Peyton of Yeovil | 684 c59 (Link to this contribution) I had hoped that the noble Lord might at least say whether the health and safety regulation which fo...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c58 (Link to this contribution) I knew that there would be a Euro-sceptic explanation of why the amendment was necessary and require...
Viscount Goschen | 684 c58 (Link to this contribution) During this short debate I felt a moment of sympathy for the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, in having to d...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c58-9 (Link to this contribution) That, of course, being the case, it could be down to interpretation. Anyway, to get to the point, A...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 684 c58 (Link to this contribution) I hope the noble Lord will forgive me but, of course, Her Majesty’s Government cannot do that withou...
Lord Norton of Louth | 684 c60-2 (Link to this contribution) I have three amendments in this group, so I should like to develop the case for them and, to some ex...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 684 c62-3 (Link to this contribution) I, too, have an amendment in this group and perhaps I might say a few words about it. As a prelimina...
Baroness Wilcox | 684 c59-60 (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to every contribution and got rather lost along the way. Letme go back to ...
Lord Peyton of Yeovil | 684 c60 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 12: Page 1, line 13, leave out ““, criminal or otherwise,”” The noble Lord sa...
Lord Borrie | 684 c64 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may speak to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Peyton of Yeovil, and those of the nobl...
Lord Goodhart | 684 c63-4 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 74 would insert a new clause with three subsections. I am effectively degrouping subse...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c63 (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Lord then degrouping as we speak?
Lord Goodhart | 684 c63 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 74, which stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Maclennan, is also in thi...
Viscount Goschen | 684 c64 (Link to this contribution) This Bill could be entitled the Reduction of Parliamentary Scrutiny Bill—and I for one do not think ...
Lord Henley | 684 c64-5 (Link to this contribution) Before I comment on the particular amendments, I remind the Minister about the rubric that appears a...
Earl of Onslow | 684 c65-6 (Link to this contribution) Could we also please have some examples of what the Minister would like to do to remove or to add to...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c66 (Link to this contribution) I shall address all the amendments that have been grouped together for the purposes of this debate, ...
Lord Goodhart | 684 c66 (Link to this contribution) I have not of course moved Amendment No. 74, so I cannot withdraw it. The first two subsections in A...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c66-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for that elucidation. I have made the case in the past that to make...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c67-9 (Link to this contribution) I have made it clear that we are not changing the constitution and that we need to address issues su...
Earl of Onslow | 684 c67 (Link to this contribution) I asked the noble Lord not to quote the fire regulations. I accept that it is silly, but I am not su...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c69 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the noble Lord; I did not deal with those amendments in detail. They would have the e...
Lord Goodhart | 684 c69 (Link to this contribution) I have listened closely but I do not think that the noble Lord gave any justification whatever for r...
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting | 684 c70 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House be resumed. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil | 684 c69-70 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I should say to the noble Lord how grateful we all are to him for providing us with such a l...
Viscount Goschen | 684 c49 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Minister not to dwell each time on fire safety legislation. He will recall when we conside...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c49-50 (Link to this contribution) The noble Viscount deserves a response. I think that he makes a fair point. The example just happens...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c50 (Link to this contribution) I shall advise the Bill team to add the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, to its advisory panel.
Baroness Wilcox | 684 c50 (Link to this contribution) In this instance, I thank the Minister for his gracious reply and turn to my noble friend behind me ...
Lord Howard of Rising | 684 c50-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 9: Page 1, line 11, leave out paragraph (b). The noble Lord said: I understan...
Lord Elton | 684 c51 (Link to this contribution) I draw to the Committee’s attention the fact that, if the amendment were to be agreed to, I should n...
Viscount Goschen | 684 c51 (Link to this contribution) I quite agree with my noble friend Lord Howard that to make the burden relate to ““an administrative...
Earl of Onslow | 684 c51-2 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak extraordinarily briefly to the amendments. In doing so, I refer back to the first amen...
Lord Norton of Louth | 684 c52 (Link to this contribution) I reinforce what my noble friend has just said. My noble friend on the Front Bench, Lord Howard, inv...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c53 (Link to this contribution) That will be an interesting debate, which I am looking forward to. I want to deal with the amendment...
Earl of Onslow | 684 c53 (Link to this contribution) Surely we do not need an Act of Parliament to stop people filling in a form. Someone in an office sa...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c52 (Link to this contribution) First, I invite the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, to consider this. It is obviously a very begui...
Lord Norton of Louth | 684 c53 (Link to this contribution) For the noble Lord’s benefit, I can think of an example relating to the potential to which an Act co...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c54 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to trade examples now. I shall provide a schedule of things that would satisfy the no...
Lord Peyton of Yeovil | 684 c55 (Link to this contribution) I rise to say only that in my anxiety to understand what is really quite a trifling point, I shall c...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c53-4 (Link to this contribution) We might need a different approach in legislation to ensure that the form-filling burden that an Act...
Viscount Goschen | 684 c54 (Link to this contribution) Even if one accepts the Minister’s argument about administrative inconvenience and that this Bill do...
Lord Norton of Louth | 684 c55 (Link to this contribution) At what point does an administrative inconvenience cease to be so in terms of scope? The noble Lord ...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 684 c38 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his reply, which I will study with great care before later conside...
Baroness Wilcox | 684 c38 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, spoke very well in response and I do not need to repeat what he said...
Lord Desai | 684 c41 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful for that explanation. I shall have to think about it between now and Report stage...
Baroness Wilcox | 684 c41-2 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend's sporting amendment, as he referred to it, is typically ingenious and provocative. ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c42-4 (Link to this contribution) The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, is certainly ““sporting””; there is no doubt about tha...
Lord Waddington | 684 c44 (Link to this contribution) If I understood my noble friend correctly, she asked how many regulations that had come into force h...
Lord Tebbit | 684 c38-40 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 6: Page 1, line 8, at end insert ““made under powers granted by the European C...
Lord Waddington | 684 c40 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that my noble friend’s main purpose in moving his amendment was to give publicity to m...
Lord Desai | 684 c41 (Link to this contribution) It is always risky to get into an argument with the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit. I am sure that by speak...
Lord Waddington | 684 c41 (Link to this contribution) That is not what I am saying. I am saying that my amendment would allow Parliament, in a particular ...
Lord Tebbit | 684 c44-5 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister and to other noble Lords who have spoken. Let me say first of all...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c45-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 7: Page 1, line 8, at end insert- ““( ) No order shall be made under this sect...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c44 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for that clarification of what noble Lords opposite are after. I com...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c48-9 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness asks a simple enough question, but, as with all these things, the question raises...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c48 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful for the Minister's response. He generously admitted the fact that he is unable to...
Baroness Wilcox | 684 c48 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 8: Page 1, line 10, at end insert ““or significant quantifiable cost in time””...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c47 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister. I submit that his example is not a good one. It is plain that th...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c47-8 (Link to this contribution) I would be reluctant to give an undertaking in the terms that the noble Lord describes. His point is...
Lord Desai | 684 c46 (Link to this contribution) Since there is no such thing as a free lunch, it is always possible that you can satisfy the conditi...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c46-7 (Link to this contribution) We had some of this debate and discussion on an earlier amendment. I take the point that this is a p...
Lord Borrie | 684 c57 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, made a very helpful point in reminding us of Hampton and the import...
Lord Goodhart | 684 c57 (Link to this contribution) This seems to be a desirable amendment and one which might well have useful consequences.
Lord Howard of Rising | 684 c55 (Link to this contribution) I accept that. The Minister says that it is not about the big issues, but about removing burdens. Ho...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c55 (Link to this contribution) Of course that is the case and it is why we have substantially amended the Bill so that its real int...
Earl of Onslow | 684 c56 (Link to this contribution) This is very important because we are inundated with reports in the newspapers along the lines of on...
Baroness Wilcox | 684 c55-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 11: Page 1, line 11, at end insert- ““( ) a health and safety regulation dispr...
Lord Howard of Rising | 684 c55 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister and all noble Lords who have spoken so well to this amendment. It has been flat...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c55 (Link to this contribution) The matter would have to satisfy that limb of the definition. As I described earlier, when bringing ...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c16 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, with his characteristic perspicacity the noble Lord, Lord Richard, has put his finger on t...
Lord Tebbit | 684 c16-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may briefly intervene. I do not know whether what I am going to say will help th...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c17 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I join the noble Lord, Lord Richard, in being rather puzzled by this debate, although I th...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 684 c17 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for the amendments that he has brought forward, which I we...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c17-8 (Link to this contribution) Well, my Lords, I can give the noble Lord an example quoted in annexe A to the letter that I sent ou...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c18 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are here as a revising Chamber. This Bill does things that are different and it works i...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c18 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think the question that my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding put was rather different f...
Lord Grocott | 684 c18-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I remind that House although we cannot have points of order, the rules of debate are clear...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 684 c18 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not propose to ask the House to divide but I do say that—
Lord Goodhart | 684 c19-20 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 1: Page 1, line 6, leave out ““he considers”” The noble Lord said: In moving ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c28 (Link to this contribution) I ask the noble Lord to reflect on what I said. The ministerial opinion requirement is not new, but ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 684 c28 (Link to this contribution) That will not do. The Minister has spent the past 10 minutes telling us that the wording was more or...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c28 (Link to this contribution) I did say that the ministerial opinion requirement in the Bill is not new. It has worked well under ...
Lord Goodhart | 684 c29-30 (Link to this contribution) I should like to express my gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, for putting his name ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c29 (Link to this contribution) That is brilliant, and the noble Lord is probably right. The important point is that the test in the...
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 684 c28 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister has sufficient time to consider the advice that he has just been given, does he ...
Earl of Onslow | 684 c28 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister say that the Minister has to consider under the old Act? If not, why change it? If...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 684 c30 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has spelt out his case very carefully and we are grateful for that. What he is saying...
Lord Goodhart | 684 c30 (Link to this contribution) With respect to the noble Lord, that would be the position anyway because secondary legislation is a...
Earl of Onslow | 684 c30-1 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord withdraws the amendment, perhaps I may point out to him that it sits on just o...
Lord Goodhart | 684 c30 (Link to this contribution) Yes, indeed I do. It is obvious because it is a case where the objector does not have to go as far a...
Baroness Wilcox | 684 c31-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 2: Page 1, line 6, after ““he”” insert ““or any person suffering a disproporti...
Lord Goodhart | 684 c31 (Link to this contribution) I am unaware of any such rule as the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, suggests. I have, over and over again,...
Baroness Wilcox | 684 c34 (Link to this contribution) I listened carefully to the Minister and will read what he said when it appears in Hansard. I am sor...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c32-4 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the noble Baroness’s positive approach to the Bill, which is in sharp contrast to some oth...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 684 c35 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 53, standing in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Goodhart, would also address ...
Baroness Wilcox | 684 c34-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 5: Page 1, line 7, leave out second ““or”” and insert ““and”” The noble Baron...
Lord Borrie | 684 c30 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, has admitted that although judicial review can apply in any case, it ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c35-8 (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 5 and 53, as the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, explained, go in the same dir...
Lord Tebbit | 684 c23 (Link to this contribution) There is good sense in the amendments. If there is no ulterior purpose in the legislation then the w...
Earl of Onslow | 684 c21-2 (Link to this contribution) When I first read the amendment, I thought that it was completely unnecessary. I assumed that, when ...
Lord Borrie | 684 c21 (Link to this contribution) I oppose the amendments in this group. At Second Reading, the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, rightly s...
Lord Norton of Louth | 684 c20-1 (Link to this contribution) I put my name to this amendment and I wish to reinforce what the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, said. I ...
Viscount Allenby of Megiddo | 684 c20 (Link to this contribution) I have to inform the Committee that, if Amendment No. 1 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments Nos. ...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c24 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, and I wholly endorse the argument h...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c24-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall deal with the two amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, and with Amendments Nos. 27 a...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 684 c23-4 (Link to this contribution) I have a little worry about this amendment. It takes out ““he considers””, but Clause 1(1) states: "...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 684 c24 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Minister will deal carefully with the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit...
Earl of Onslow | 684 c27 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has still not told us the difference between his attitude to the word ““considers”” and...
Lord Norton of Louth | 684 c27 (Link to this contribution) This is not a test in any circumstance. Given the political framework, which the Minister has spent ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c27 (Link to this contribution) I thought I had made that point. The noble Earl obviously disagrees. It is important that the Minist...
Earl of Onslow | 684 c25 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has gone on at considerable length about the reason behind what should be done. I have ...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c27 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister saying that there is a difference between the Bill and the 2001 Act, or not?
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c25-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall come to the point; it is fair to remind me of it. I want to go through the process because ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c27 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, explained very well in his introduction, the words would shift the...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 684 c27 (Link to this contribution) Have there been any difficulties since the 2001 Act was passed which make this insertion necessary?
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c28 (Link to this contribution) The wording in the 2001 Act is pretty much the same wording that we have put into the Bill. There ha...
Earl of Onslow | 684 c59 (Link to this contribution) I cannot let that nice, gentle, complimentary remark from the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, go unanswered...
Earl of Onslow | 684 c50 (Link to this contribution) The answer is surely that the amendment is unnecessary because what it proposes is already included ...
Earl of Onslow | 684 c56-7 (Link to this contribution) If that is so, while I do not expect Ministers, even of this Administration, to behave in such a cra...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 684 c28 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister saying—if he is, I might change sides—that the 2001 Act, which I confess I have not ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c27 (Link to this contribution) I thought I made it clear that the words have a similar effect to those in the 2001 Act. That was th...
Lord Peyton of Yeovil | 684 c51 (Link to this contribution) I want to know when an inconvenience becomes administrative and when it does not. I would be most gr...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 684 c22-3 (Link to this contribution) I do not wish to detain the Committee for too long or go over old ground, but this amendment, which ...
Subjects
Devolved matters Crime Business Delegated legislation Legislation Ministerial powers Scotland Regulation Wales Taxation Legislative reform orders
Legislation
Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill 2005-06
Link
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