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Charities Bill [HL]

My Lords, as the Minister said, we return to familiar territory: the independence of the Charity Commission. Concern was expressed during the earlier stages of the Bill that, given the greatly increased power of the Charity Commission, it is important that it be properly insulated from political pressure from any part of the political spectrum. I am the first to recognise that the Government made a major step with the insertion of subsection (4), which the Minister read out a few moments ago. I am sure the whole House is grateful to them for that. However, in paragraph 5 of Schedule 1, there are what could be regarded by the suspicious—some might say, the paranoid—as weasel words that the appointment of other staff requires the approval of the Minister as to their terms and conditions of service. There was concern that it would be said that the Charity Commission is independent, but it would be told how it is going to make appointments and how much it will pay and therefore the effectiveness and work of the commission could be shaded and guided by use of paragraph 5 of Schedule 1, which is headed ““Staff””. While the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, and I could see the force of the argument about approval of the chief executive’s pay and rations, the argument for controlling the terms and conditions of all other staff did not hold water for me. The amendment on which I supported the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, was to establish a cap on the total remuneration—clearly, we could not hand away the pen and the chequebook—but leave the detail tothe commission. Strangely enough, that is what the Minister says the present amendment does, but it does not quite say that. Our wording makes that much clearer than his amendment does. It states: "““The terms and conditions of service of persons appointed under sub-paragraph (1) are to be such as the Commission may determine with the approval of the Minister for the Civil Service””." That is not, ““Here’s the overall cap, you get on with it””; it could be, ““Bring us a list of all the people, and we will see what their pay and rations are””. I was very reassured by the Minister’s words from the Dispatch Box, but I was rather less reassured by the way they tied in with the amendment. What he said seemed to me to fit much more happily with the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, and me, which is in the Bill at present. I accept that the Minister is a man of honour, and I am sure that he is telling me exactly how the situation is going to work out in future. I am sure that there are some deficiencies in the drafting of the amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, and I tabled, which was passed at the last stage, but it will be helpful if, one last time before we wave goodbye to this clause, he could give us a final word or two of reassurance that the wording in my amendment, which matches his words, cannot be used and that we have to have this amendment, which still leaves the slightly uneasy feeling that a determined Minister at some date in the future could grab the powers and influence the commission in a way that all sides of the House agree would be undesirable.