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Concessionary Bus Travel Bill [HL]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. Given the impressive array of local government expertise present among them, I am not surprised to have been challenged about how local authorities deal with a scheme intended to bring benefits nationwide in England. I recognise the crucial role that local authorities will play in arranging such services. The only point that I wish to make at this stage is obvious. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, emphasised local authorities’ crucial role, as did the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield. Both were supported by other noble Lords, who, for the best of reasons, emphasised the advantages of the earliest possible introduction of a smart card that would operate throughout England, and expressed the hope that it would soon cover the whole of the United Kingdom. There is an element of contradiction in emphasising the local dimension as well as the need for solutions that can be thought of only in national terms. There are bound to be pleas for greater clarification of some aspects of the scheme, but we are taking part in negotiations on it and there is much work to do before we can envisage introducing the wholly desirable concept of a universal smart card. While I do not concede that the Government are less enthusiastic than noble Lords opposite about the advantages of such a scheme, the practicalities of implementing it are substantial. This Bill seeks to put myriad local arrangements into a national scheme for England. Several contributions, including that of the noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, emphasised how comparatively advanced Scotland is on a national scheme. I am not sure that I entirely accept his contention that that has been due to the minority contribution of the Liberal Party in Scotland, but he is bound to make that point. There have been rather more Labour Ministers concerned with the development of that policy in Scotland, but I hear what the noble Earl said. It is bound to take us time to get the scheme up and running. We aim to have the scheme for England in place in 2008, but the full reciprocal arrangements for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are bound to take time. When I responded to my noble friend Lord Foulkes, who, regrettably, is not able to be present at this stage in our deliberations, I sought to clarify that I shared his obvious enthusiasm for reciprocal arrangements. We are already engaged in the discussions, but I hope that the House will recognise that it will take time to put the English scheme and the reciprocal arrangements in place right across the United Kingdom. The same applies to the minor points with which the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, opened his speech. He said that he was only really concerned about funding and implementation. Well, surprise, surprise: it would be amazing if the noble Lord were not interested in those things; so are the Government. Funding and implementation lie at the heart of effective policy, but I hope he will understand that we are creating the legislative framework within which the funding and implementation issues can be worked out. I accept that we shall be able to discuss some of these issues in more detail in Committee, but the Bill is about identifying the necessary powers and strategy to put in place an England-wide scheme in 2008. By the same token, I am not at all surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Low, with his enthusiastic and effective advocacy for the case of the disabled, argues about categories and asks why the scheme should not operate before 9.30 in the morning and at rush hours. We all know the basic answer to that. I accept what the noble Lord said about the advantages of no such restriction operating on the use of transport by our fellow disabled citizens at those times, but there are very acute pinch-points in transport usage at peak hours in many parts of the country. My noble friend Lady Quin identified that we have to tread very carefully when it comes to increasing pressure on services, which at present are often stretched. I recognise the validity of her point that Tyne and Wear, as a transport authority, was presented with acute difficulties. That was a source of great dismay to her, given that she was so far forward with her concept of how this legislation might work, as envisaged in her own Bill a few years ago. I understand her keen interest. She will know that we have taken some steps to remedy the position in Tyne and Wear, and we have learnt from that the necessity of meeting the objectives of all noble Lords. When we implement this legislation, it has to work effectively and fairly, but there are acute difficulties. We have to be careful about trying to have the issue both ways. On the one hand, several noble Lords contended that they were mightily suspicious of any suggestion that power should move upwards from the local level and that the scheme should depend on anything beyond the local authority for implementation. At the same time, it was emphasised that, first, it was necessary to bring in the scheme as rapidly as possible to make it fully contingent with the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish schemes so that we have a universal position, and, secondly, that the permit to travel, which would guarantee the scheme’s smooth-working, should receive appropriate recognition. None of that is easily resolvable with local idiosyncrasies. It will be necessary for us to have effective discussions with local authorities to iron out these issues for implementation in 2008. This scheme cannot work without a universally recognised valid permit across England. The issue of smart cards is a little more sophisticated than that and will take longer. I accept that a valid travel permit will need to be recognised across all areas of England. I was also pressed on where buses end and coaches start—or perhaps it is the other way around—as the half-fare subsidy will continue for coaches. Nothing in the Bill changes that. On that point, the definition of a local bus service is one where bus stops are within15 miles of each other. We will operate the system on that criterion. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Low, that the definition of ““disabled”” in the Bill will not change. In this legislation we will use the same definition that governs entitlement.