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Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill [HL]

I accept that. I am certainly not trying to pick a fight with the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis. I was trying to be helpful and friendly towards him, while at the same time gently saying to the Minister that I think that many people are a little concerned about whether there is sufficient help for those who cannot be expected to look after themselves, whether because of complexity or because they have not had as good an education as we would wish everybody to have, or because of other personal circumstances. There is an issue here that is also raised by the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, which has virtually been brought into this debate now. I hope that the Minister will give further consideration to this between now and Report. I say no more than that. The only other thing that I will say while on my feet is that I urge the Minister on in her constructive approach to my noble friend Lord Kingsland in respect of the business of the interests of justice being achieved. Of course we can hope that in all these proceedings, whether in courts or in tribunals, the aim is to serve the interests of justice; but I share the view that there could be some merit in making this clear, not least because the clause twice refers to the desirability of speed and efficiency. We could also assume that that should be taken for granted in all cases, but there can sometimes be a tension between speed and efficiency and the interests of justice. If you are going to make declaratory remarks about one, you might just as well make declaratory remarks about the other.