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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Wednesday, 13 December 2006, in the House of Lords.

Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill [HL]

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
687 c43-80GC 
Session
2006-07
Department
Department for Constitutional Affairs
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c68-9GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for introducing a number of issues. I shall try to ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c73GC (Link to this contribution) I am only taking it away because I did not clear its acceptance. I had not heard what the noble Lord...
Show all contributions (99)
Lord Kingsland | 687 c64GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 51: Page 9, line 22, at end insert- ““( ) The Lord Presidency may, as respects...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c57GC (Link to this contribution) To have more than two would take us into a different set of reasons from the one that I have given. ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c46-7GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to everyone who has spoken. As ever in Committee, a range of issues was raised under a...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c47GC (Link to this contribution) I have offered a bottle of champagne, which I will personally purchase, if we can find a name that p...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 687 c74GC (Link to this contribution) As I said at Second Reading, I support the view that legal aid should be available under certain cir...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 687 c75-6GC (Link to this contribution) I shall revert briefly to Amendment No. 59 in my name, to which the noble Lord, Lord Newton, has jus...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 687 c75GC (Link to this contribution) I accept that. I am certainly not trying to pick a fight with the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis. I ...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 687 c77GC (Link to this contribution) The whole impression that has been given so far is that legal aid should not be given under any acco...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c77GC (Link to this contribution) It is not obnoxious at all. My noble friend’s views on the matter do not differ greatly from mine or...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 687 c78GC (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether what is being expressed here is in the right terms or the wrong terms, but it ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c78GC (Link to this contribution) What is wrong with that is that I am not in a position to give an open-ended commitment that in all ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c80GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn till tomorrow at two o’clock.
Lord Kingsland | 687 c65GC (Link to this contribution) I am, of course, most grateful to the noble Baroness. In those circumstances I am very pleased to be...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 687 c69GC (Link to this contribution) If the Minister wants flexibility to include immigration cases, why not put that in the Bill now? It...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c70-1GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her reply. I share much of the noble and learned Lord’s...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c66-7GC (Link to this contribution) We gave notice of our intention to oppose Clauses 15 to 20 standing part to raise three issues. I sh...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 687 c68GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble and learned friend Lord Lloyd of Berwick in relation to the requirement to have s...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 687 c73GC (Link to this contribution) While my noble friend is looking at that matter, will she also confirm that Amendment No. 58 is also...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c62-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord both for raising the case, which he raised on Second Reading, and fo...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c64GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 45: Page 8, line 23, at end insert- ““( ) Where- (a) an order under subsection...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c57GC (Link to this contribution) Not at all. It is about looking after the chamber and what goes on in it. The person in charge of th...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 687 c55GC (Link to this contribution) As my intentions are similarly probing, it will not be necessary for me to take much longer than the...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 687 c54GC (Link to this contribution) It might be—I choose a deliberately far-fetched example—that the Lord Chancellor takes the view that...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c54GC (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the noble Lord would elaborate for me. As a general principle, consultation is a go...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 687 c49-50GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for her explanation. However, it is not wholly satisfactory. I underst...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c47GC (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more, but there are not just legal members, but medical members of tribunals who, ...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 687 c46GC (Link to this contribution) I take rather a different view to that of the noble Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. I support the amend...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 687 c46GC (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with the views that have just been expressed. We are making a great song and dance ...
Countess of Mar | 687 c44-5GC (Link to this contribution) I suspect the precedent has already been set for this. I apologise for not having spoken on Second R...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 687 c44GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment although I do so to some extent in a spirit of inquiry, as I found the noble...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c43GC (Link to this contribution) I am particularly delighted to give way to the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c73GC (Link to this contribution) This is why I should not do things on the hoof, is it not? I immediately find myself in a different ...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c73-4GC (Link to this contribution) This is partly my fault. I have just realised that Amendments Nos. 57 and 58 are in the same group a...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 687 c74-5GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Minister will give serious consideration to what the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis,...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 687 c78-9GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister is, as always, disarming, but it is more than 25 years since the Royal Commission on Le...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c79-80GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for understanding the points I was making about why I cannot give th...
Lord Brougham and Vaux | 687 c80GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at two o’clock.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c65GC (Link to this contribution) To clarify, the amendment would extend to the Court of Session the possibility of limiting second ap...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c65GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 52: Page 10, line 4, at end insert- ““( ) Where- (a) an order under subsection...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c71GC (Link to this contribution) I see no difficulty in a High Court judge sitting with another judge who is an expert in a particula...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c71GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for letting me intervene. I wish to say two things. First, we want the Asylum...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c72-3GC (Link to this contribution) My speaking note says: "““Despite the noble Lord’s eloquence, it is difficult to see exactly why his...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 687 c73GC (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend sits down, does she not agree that this amendment isalso the subject, invaria...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 687 c72GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for that undertaking. I very much look forward to reading what sh...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c72GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 56: Page 18, line 32, at end insert- ““( ) that the interests of justice are a...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c43GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 1: Page 3, line 3, leave out ““judge”” and insert ““legal member”” The noble ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c60GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. I shall clarify, so far as I can, what we seek to d...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c60GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 38: Page 6, line 3, after ““review”” insert ““on any point of law”” The noble...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 687 c64GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her reply. I will of course study her remarks with care and consult widely....
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 687 c64GC (Link to this contribution) had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 46: Page 8, line 30, at end insert ““or is...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c57GC (Link to this contribution) I would be delighted to do so. The clause simply gives us a little flexibility. Two people might eac...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c57GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 11: Page 4, line 41, leave out ““, or two persons,”” The noble Lord said: Ame...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c57-8GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments Nos. 12 to 35 n...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 687 c57GC (Link to this contribution) Following the Minister’s reasoning, why stop at two?
Lord Newton of Braintree | 687 c55GC (Link to this contribution) No, I certainly have no strong view. If one wants to illustrate that they are not quite the same as ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c55GC (Link to this contribution) I have to say that the noble Lords have totally spoilt my fun, because I was going to say that I do ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c55-6GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, but I will not walk into that trap, because that takes me back to j...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 687 c53GC (Link to this contribution) There is another possible line of inquiry. If there is to be the concept of the Lord Chancellor impo...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 687 c51-2GC (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether I might put into the pot a thought that has occurred to me while the debate has bee...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c51GC (Link to this contribution) My secret plan is to become a judge, as the noble Lord knows. I am very happy to talk further about...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c50GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope the noble Lord will find nothing to mistrust in anything we are seeking to do. I h...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c52-3GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for bringing up these issues. As your Lordships can see from Clauses...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c52GC (Link to this contribution) I do not know, because I am mindful of how the commission is set up, what it does and does not do, a...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c48GC (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in what I can describe only as an extremely lively debate. T...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c48GC (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to interrupt the noble Lord, but I want to make it clear that that was absolutely not the...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 687 c47GC (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to offer neologism to the Minister, but I am bound to say that ““member of the tribunal””...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 687 c45-6GC (Link to this contribution) I think that that was the case in the past. I must declare a general interest having been a judge, b...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 687 c45GC (Link to this contribution) I speak with some diffidence because I must declare my interest, which I declared on Second Reading,...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c43-4GC (Link to this contribution) If you are a recorder or assistant recorder, in either case you are not called ““judge”” as such, bu...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 687 c43GC (Link to this contribution) If somebody sits as an assistant recorder, he or she is automatically viewed as a judge. Am I not ri...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 687 c75GC (Link to this contribution) Issues of complexity can also arise, which the noble Lord has not dealt with. That is very important...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c76-7GC (Link to this contribution) I begin by saying to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, that it is always helpful when the whole group ...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c80GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for everything she said about the three issues highlighted by these am...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c70GC (Link to this contribution) I understand the noble and learned Lord’s position. We are clear that we do not want to include them...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 687 c67-8GC (Link to this contribution) I shall say a few words on the general points raised by the noble Lord’s third issue. It will be he...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c72GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for allowing us to return to this matter. I am not sure that I can a...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 687 c71GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 55: Page 14, line 1, leave out subsection (6). The noble Lord said: This amend...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c61GC (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, the Minister has described a very narrow jurisdiction. She mentioned the slip ru...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 687 c61GC (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 43: Page 7, line 29, after ““of”” insert ““fact or”” The noble Lord said: I sh...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c64GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 49 and 50: Page 9, line 14, after ““(4)”” insert ““that falls within subsect...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c57GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister. Surely she would not envisage two people assuming the chair of t...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c57GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for an extremely helpful reply. We look forward to the further in...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c58GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 37: Page 5, line 30, at end insert- ““( ) Subsection (1) does not apply to fun...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 687 c60GC (Link to this contribution) It would be churlish not to acknowledge the wisdom of the Minister in tabling the amendments in the ...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c54-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her response. In the circumstances, I beg leave to with...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c54GC (Link to this contribution) With the greatest respect to the chief justice of Malawi, this is not about specific individuals or ...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c55GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 8: Page 4, line 37, leave out ““chambers”” and insert ““divisions”” The noble...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c50-1GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her observations. Bearing in mind that whoever is selected under the provis...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c52GC (Link to this contribution) There are two other amendments in the group, Amendments Nos. 65 and 66, which are there because they...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 687 c52GC (Link to this contribution) I certainly do not want to press the point, and I do not want to get legalistic about this because I...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c49GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for so succinctly explaining what he is seeking to achieve. This goe...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c48GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 3: Page 112, line 23, leave out paragraph (d). The noble Lord said: This amen...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c48GC (Link to this contribution) I was not suggesting that it was the reason; I was simply responding to what the noble Countess, Lad...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 687 c47GC (Link to this contribution) Has the Minister a view on what non-legal members of the tribunal should be called?
Lord Kingsland | 687 c43GC (Link to this contribution) That is in a sense the opposite situation. If you were a recorder—
Subjects
Appeals Asylum Finance Legal aid scheme Judiciary Immigration Judgements Qualifications Membership Public appointments Tribunals Council on Tribunals Tribunals Service
Legislation
Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill (HL) 2006-07
Link
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