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Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill [HL]

What is wrong with that is that I am not in a position to give an open-ended commitment that in all circumstances the chairman of a tribunal could indicate that and thereby grant legal aid. The Committee will know from the Criminal Defence Service Act and the work that we have been doing that we are trying to think systematically of the circumstances in which it would operate. I could not conceive of giving that kind of commitment. If my noble friend reflects on the work that we are doing around legal aid, I do not think that he would expect me to. I am trying to draw attention to the fact that the whole purpose behind the review of legal aid, which was instigated by my noble and learned friend and conducted by the noble Lord, Lord Carter, was to look at how best to use this finite pot of moneyto support access to justice across the system and to recognise the weighting that currently exists in criminal and civil cases. My noble and learned friend has said on a number of occasions that he is mindful of the position of the tribunal system within that. I am merely trying to say that I cannot move from that position to determining in the Bill that person X can be granted legal aid of an undefined amount in an unspecified set of circumstances. That would be completely beyond my remit and would undermine the review on legal aid. My noble friend should take heart from the fact that the point which he rightly stressed, and which has been raised and supported by other Members of the Committee, is a very valid one. How do we make sure that in the range of services we provide—including legal aid, proper advice and support and the use of professionals—the Tribunals Service serves people by being user-friendly, open, accessible and speedy? How do we make sure that we provide a high-quality service where, at the end of it, people have had access to justice? Legal aid has its part to play, but at this point I cannot define an open-ended part in the Bill. I hope my noble friend will take heart from the fact that I am trying not to lose the point but to put it in its proper context within the service and within the wider review.