---

Concessionary Bus Travel Bill [HL]

As I have indicated, the department does not see the Secretary of State playing that role. The way in which the structure evolves is for others to determine. I have not the slightest doubt that local authorities will see that it is in their interest, when they are dealing with a body like National Express, for some negotiations to take place on a broader basis than just each individual authority. In the first instance we are looking for the arrangements to be derived on that basis rather than a national scheme implemented by the Secretary of State. While I cannot quite call it a reserve power in the Bill, the Committee will recognise that we have here the potential for the Secretary of State to take responsibility for the scheme if we are not successful with our other arrangements. National Express is not a particularly good example because it largely runs coach rather than bus services, but I recognise what the noble Baroness says. Bus companies can be very big operators and a lot of complex negotiations will take place. We start off on the premise that local authorities have developed their discretionary schemes over a period of time. They have a great deal of expertise at their disposal and they know the contours within which they are working. They will know the framework for reimbursement and the Bill provides for that. We will see how it goes. We merely think it wise to have a power for the Secretary of State within the framework of the Bill in case such arrangements do not work out.