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House of Lords: Reform

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Williamson and Lord McNally, for their constructive responses to the White Paper. I intend no discourtesy to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, who, I may say—I take the House into my confidence in this respect—was a delight on the Joint Committee. He was so constructive and keen for reform. I find that there are two Lord Strathclydes: one when he is with me or with the Guardian and one when he is here in the Chamber. I shall read to you what the Guardian reported the noble Lord had said to someone called Mr Patrick Wintour. Of course, the press often get it wrong, so I am quite sure that it has got this bit wrong. "““Lord Strathclyde also objected to the length of Mr Straw's transition programme, pointing out that it would take two generations to reduce the house to 540. He added that the large appointed element would still leave open the charge of cronyism. He confirmed that the Conservative party would support 80% of the upper house being elected””." So this wild reformer over here appears to be saying ““Too slow and not enough”” about an elected element. Indeed, he asked: what is the problem that we are seeking to solve? Presumably, the same problem that the noble Lord is seeking to solve by suggesting 80 per cent reform. As far as I am concerned, the problem that we need to debate is: is it possible to go on in the long term with a House this effective and this good which has such a significant effect on legislation without there being an elected element? That is the question. The White Paper allows a proper debate about it. I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, that no noble Lord should feel inhibited about expressing his or her views in this debate. The last time that we debated the matter, 98 noble Lords spoke on the issue, and I very much hope that there will be a similar number this time. As regards the Parliament Act, let us wait to see whether or not we can build a consensus. The costs will depend on what conclusion Parliament reaches about a new House. As far as a Bill is concerned, obviously that depends on the terms of the coming debate, promised in our manifesto and committed to in both other parties’ manifestos in 2005 as well. I also support the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord McNally. First, do read the White Paper; it is a very impressive attempt to see whether consensus can be reached. We should attempt to reach consensus with the same enthusiasm that I saw from the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. I confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, that the 20 per cent element would comprise non-party-political Peers. It does not include a takeover of the Bishops. I do not think that such a takeover would be altogether successful in these circumstances. The noble Lord asked why we should have the elections for this House at the same time as the European elections rather than at the same time as the general election. There are arguments both ways. We have plumped for European elections because we think it right, when people are voting for the Commons, that it should not affect how they vote for the second Chamber, but we recognise that it is a very finely balanced issue. This is a very important issue, where this House, quite rightly, has a voice that should be heard. I completely respect the views strongly held on both sides of the House. We see the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, and the noble Lord, Lord McNally, together supporting an elected element. We see my noble friends Lady Symons of Vernon Dean and Lord Tomlinson completely against it. Let us have the debate and hope that during it we discover the views of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde.