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Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill [Lords]

It is a privilege to follow my hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack), whose speech to the House tonight, as on so many occasions, exemplifies why he should be here for at least another two decades, if not more. I agree with much of what he said. He has, as does the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mark Fisher), a reputation in this place for his interest and experience in the arts; we would all bow to their judgment and sensitivities in that field. My remarks are more concerned with what may be a less civilised area of human activity—what bailiffs have to do in securing debts. As my hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire said, the Minister was generous in giving way during her opening remarks. Having served on many Committees with her, I know that she is a very sane and sensible person. I am reassured that in her hands and in those of her colleagues, and with the pressure that will come from my own Front Benchers, the Bill will be better when it comes back to this Chamber The Bill has been welcomed on both sides of the House, by my own party and by the Liberal Democrats; it is not one that the House will get overheated about. That is why what my hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire said about scrutiny is so important—although we old dogs may go on about it a bit. My hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) mentioned the 250-odd hours that we spent considering a criminal justice Bill in Committee. Perhaps rightly, those days are long behind us. The upper House has been praised for its consideration of the Bill. Indeed, it scrutinised it very well, but only for two sittings, so it has not been slaving away on it. Members should not think that it has already been given a huge amount of parliamentary scrutiny and should therefore float gently through the Commons. We will discuss it tonight, for whatever length of time—it is noticeable that not many Labour Back Benchers are here—and it will spend perhaps 12 hours in Standing Committee; it might run into a second week, but I suspect not. Because of agreements between the Front Benches, such party politically non-controversial Bills now have a habit of not spending much time under consideration. This Bill was considered as a draft Bill, but the response to the draft is not widely known, so the House would find it difficult to judge what progress the Government made on that. Such non-partisan Bills are classic examples of Bills that should be considered through the evidence-taking procedure that the House adopted on the recommendation of the Modernisation Committee, whereby people who have to implement them are given the opportunity to present evidence to hon. Members. In this case, those with vested interests have communicated with Members. We have read in today’s media several representations from Citizens Advice, which all of us as Members of Parliament find an extraordinarily useful organisation. In Bexley, the volunteers at the citizens advice bureau do a remarkable job in helping people, and they are understandably worried about the changes that will come about in bailiffs’ practices. A constituent of mine, Philip Evans, who is chairman of the Enforcement Law Reform Group, has made his views known to me in relation to part 3, which deals with enforcement by taking control of goods. Earlier, I suggested to the Minister that about 400 years of judicial opinion is being overturned. It is a serious matter, as this Government have tended to change longstanding matters of procedure and habit, not always taking full account of the consequences. The old phrase ““An Englishman’s home is his castle”” came about in a 1604 ruling. As Lord Gresford QC said:"““The law that protects domestic premises from forcible entry by bailiffs is an extremely ancient and settled law””.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 December 2006; Vol. 687, c. GC91.]" We are about to change that dramatically. Concerns have rightly been expressed in another place and here today about the new powers that bailiffs will have, particularly the change that will come about as regards commercial property and residential properly. Most of us would have fewer concerns about how bailiffs behave when chasing a large corporation for a debt than how they behave when intimidating somebody in their home. That is why the point about uniforms has been aptly made, and I hope that the Minister will seriously consider it—if not today, then in Committee. The way in which one identifies someone who is trying forcibly to enter one’s house against one’s wishes is important. Schedule 12 details provisions for power of entry on page 211. As hon. Members know, many of the powers will be made by subsequent regulation, so it will not be possible for my hon. Friends on the Front Bench or Liberal Democrat Front Benchers, who are giving the Bill a fair wind, to scrutinise the Government’s exact intentions, because we simply do not know them. We are being asked to place much trust in the Minister and people are understandably concerned about that. That applies not least to bailiffs. They are worried that some of the powers that they are to receive will be impractical and that the provisions will increase the violence against them. That may change if the Government take on board the points about ease of identification, which could allay bailiffs’ concerns. On Report in the House of Lords, the Minister claimed that High Court enforcement officers wanted power of entry. I am surprised that that statement was not challenged, because they already have such a power, which was restated in the Courts Act 2003. However, the current proposal is to extend the power to a further group. I was a bit confused, because when the Minister described the way in which the new forcible activity would take place at a lower level than that of court enforcement officers, she said that homes would be visited only at certain times. Will it happen by letter of appointment? We have all dealt with constituents who have sailed a bit close to the wind, and in some cases we think that they deserve a visit from the bailiffs. Not all the people who come to our surgeries are angels who have fallen on hard times. Some of them know exactly what they are about. I cannot imagine that those who understand the system will wait for a letter from the bailiff or the Minister saying, ““Will next Tuesday be convenient? If you could be there at 10 o’clock, we’ll come for a chat.”” That simply will not happen. We look forward to hearing, by Report, how the Government envisage such visits happening in practice, given the nature of bailiffs’ work. Schedule 12(14) deals with forced entry to premises. Hon. Members of all parties have criticised it and the Minister’s response was unconvincing. I remain confused about the way in which bailiffs will get access to houses when they are unwelcome. Perhaps some of the powers are not unlike those to which Parliament agreed in 2004 in the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act. However, many involved in implementing the Act are not convinced that it works well and there are anxieties about it. Yet we propose to extend such powers to bailiffs. We are concerned about the way in which that will work. I am not so worried about whether bailiffs will be heavy men in bowler hats, forcing their way in against the will of unsuspecting people. Doubtless, the odd one will go too far—I suspect that that is the nature of the game. However, there is a concern that people who may not be terribly well educated, are vulnerable and find difficulty coping with our legal system and their debt, will be made more vulnerable because of the Bill. The provisions for taking control of goods in schedule 12 are very prescriptive. Bailiffs are worried that the powers that the measure gives them are so immediate that they make first-call seizure more likely. Earlier, the hon. Member for Knowsley, South (Mr. O'Hara) mentioned a case in which a grandmother paid £200 to help a grandchild who was being pursued by bailiffs. The bailiffs’ view is that that will not happen in future but that seizure will happen in the first instance. I therefore believe that much heartache will accompany the new proposals and hon. Members should know that. Everyone will welcome the new certification process. I doubt whether anyone will oppose it. However, is it necessary? Does not the existing process work? There is little evidence of that. Bailiffs who go too far appear to be swiftly removed. I know of no examples of action not being taken. We must also bear it in mind that the majority of bailiff work is to do with Government and local government fines, for, for example, non-payment of council tax. We must therefore be cautious that we do not extend powers considerably and change centuries of tradition in this country for a process that is mainly about enforcing the recovery of Government debt. Although I am happy that Conservative Front Benchers have been positive about the matter, and with the tenor of the debate, questions remain that Ministers must address in Committee. Although the proceedings will be brief, I hope that the Minister realises that we are watching for some movement on Report to ensure that bailiffs’ powers have not gone too far and that constituents who have the misfortune to encounter them are protected.