---

Fraud (Trials without a Jury) Bill

My Lords, as I grasped the point advanced by my noble and learned friend the Attorney-General, my understanding is that all the points are not presented to a jury because of the difficulty of getting them across. I shall move on as this has been a long debate. I will not go over all the points that I had intended to make, as many of them were covered by my noble friend Lord Tomlinson and I do not intend to repeat them, but I shall conclude with his final point about the role of the House in dealing with issues of this nature. My noble friend referred to the debate last week and mentioned the possible consequences of the Opposition, supported by the Liberal Democrats, moving their amendment and the way that that would be perceived by the Commons. He warned that in due course it could have an adverse effect for this House. I come from an entirely different angle. My noble friend is in favour of a fully appointed House; I am in favour of an elected one. Last week, I argued that this House already has substantial powers—powers of such enormity that, in my opinion, from time to time they should be subject to the consent of the people through elections. I believe that the debate today completely bears out that argument. A totally unelected, appointed House is flying in the face of what the elected Members in the other place perceive to be the correct way forward. We should think long and hard before we decide to wreck, in the way that is being proposed, legislation that has gone through the other place.