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Debate on bill on Tuesday, 20 March 2007, in the House of Lords, led by Lord Goldsmith. The answering member was Lord Kingsland.

Fraud (Trials without a Jury) Bill

Fraud (Trials without a Jury) Bill. Lords second reading debate. Amendment to decline to give a second reading debated and agreed to on division (216 votes to 143).

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
690 c1146-201 
Session
2006-07
Procedure
Government defeats
Reasoned amendments
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Criminal Justice Act 2003
Thursday, 20 November 2003
Public acts
Proceeding contributions
Lord Goldsmith | 690 c1146-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. In this Bill we return to the imp...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 690 c1165 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the noble Lord leaves the question of alternatives, does he not agree that the meas...
Show all contributions (60)
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 690 c1164-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lord, I mentioned one that Mr Simon Hughes put to Mr Blunkett: that instead of a conventional jur...
Lord Goldsmith | 690 c1165 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord will recall that his party, when Mr Michael Howard was Home Secretary, also...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 690 c1165 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, yes, I agree with the noble Lord. My anger is compounded by the fact that the noble and le...
Lord Goldsmith | 690 c1164 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the noble Lord continues in this way, which is a little uncharacteristic in this Ho...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 690 c1163-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to speak in this debate in sorrow and in anger. I speak in sorrow because for more ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 690 c1164 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was told at the time that he was not happy with the agreement that had been reached. I a...
Lord Rosser | 690 c1161-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hesitate to intervene in what appears to be a predominantly legal exchange. I support th...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 690 c1158-61 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, has properly reminded us that the matter with which we are...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c1151-2 (Link to this contribution) rose to move, as an amendment to the Motion that the Bill be now read a second time, to leave out ““...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 690 c1152 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, is it not very usual for this House to take a different view from another place in Committ...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c1152-4 (Link to this contribution) For two reasons, my Lords: first, because the Opposition are, ultimately, opposed to the principle o...
Lord Goldsmith | 690 c1152 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, would the noble Lord confirm that on at least two occasions at the time when that order wa...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c1152 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is not the point that I am seeking to make. An affirmative resolution would give us o...
Lord Goldsmith | 690 c1155 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, given the fraternal exchange between the Liberal Democrat Benches and the noble Lord, is t...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c1155-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am indeed aware of what happens in Diplock courts. It is usual to bring in a second judg...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c1154 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that it goes further than he says? If a public interest immunity...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c1155 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, has taken my argument one step further by raising the very di...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 690 c1156-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General began by indicating that the procedures fo...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 690 c1148 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before my noble and learned friend proceeds, am I right in supposing that if the Oppositio...
Lord Goldsmith | 690 c1148-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall come back to that point but my noble friend is absolutely right that if the Motion...
Lord Goldsmith | 690 c1149-51 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the SFO deals with something like 90 cases each year. I have indicated that the best estim...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 690 c1149 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise to the noble and learned Lord for interrupting, but while he is dealing with s...
Lord Brennan | 690 c1175-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the service of any one of us to sit on a jury, as is now required, is an act of citizenshi...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 690 c1177-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, has applied to his own speech his criteria of intelligibilit...
Baroness Miller of Hendon | 690 c1171-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as someone who was a magistrate but who has long since retired, I have law and order still...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 690 c1171 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, when one was a member of the Government, what one said in public was obviously limited; bu...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 690 c1171 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very glad that the noble and learned Lord was one of them, but I do not think that hi...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 690 c1166-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I declare an interest. I still practise at the Bar and have appeared as defence counsel in...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 690 c1169-71 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am glad to follow the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew. The mixed results he has addu...
Earl of Onslow | 690 c1165 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is a frightfully bad excuse. Just because two people do something does not make it an...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 690 c1165 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my most difficult task is to follow that. For 10 years this Labour Government have been ac...
Baroness Mallalieu | 690 c1179-82 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, each of the preceding 12 speakers has identified a problem with jury trials: problems of l...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 690 c1191-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I happened by coincidence to be reading a summing-up on Sunday, and I shall quote what the...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 690 c1182-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there have been many good speeches and highly pertinent points have been made, so I will t...
Lord Tomlinson | 690 c1184-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell, seemed to be saying that we are improving our trac...
Lord James of Blackheath | 690 c1186-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as sensibly prompted by the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, I shall not start by saying th...
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe | 690 c1189-90 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the principal charge against the Bill is that it attacks the foundation stone of British j...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c1191 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, is the noble Lord referring to the full detail of the case against the accused? Is that th...
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe | 690 c1191 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was referring to the range of charges which the prosecution believes it could run but, b...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c1191 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I recall that I did deal with that. My point is simply this: if the Government accept, as ...
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe | 690 c1191 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I grasped the point advanced by my noble and learned friend the Attorney-General, my un...
Baroness Miller of Hendon | 690 c1196 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I cannot let that pass. I would never say that I am sorry that I am not a lawyer.
Lord Goldsmith | 690 c1195-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, thanked me in his first remarks for having opened the deba...
Lord Goldsmith | 690 c1197-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord. He is in the place normally occupied by the noble Lord, Lor...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 690 c1198 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, does the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General accept that if there is to be a regim...
Lord Goldsmith | 690 c1196-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my admiration for the judgment of the noble Baroness remains at a high level. If she will ...
Lord Goldsmith | 690 c1199-200 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, my Lords, but I had not wanted to get into the history of all of this. I had thought and...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c1200 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, raised a similar matter to that raised by the noble an...
Lord Goldsmith | 690 c1198-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I bow to the noble Lord’s experience but I do not agree with him. I do not see why that sh...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c1199 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is not my understanding of the Government’s position at all. Before this Bill was int...
Lord Goldsmith | 690 c1200 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, our very good recent debates on the future of this House have focused on one aspect: that ...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 690 c1200 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before my noble friend does that, does he agree that if the Opposition were to succeed ton...
Lord Goldsmith | 690 c1200 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the logic of my noble friend’s position is for everyone to judge. This Bill is not an atta...
Lord Goldsmith | 690 c1201 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord is simply failing to take account of what I said. It is not just the length...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c1200-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall be relatively telegraphic. First, in my submission the Government have not made ou...
Lord Kingsland | 690 c1201 (Link to this contribution) Well then, my Lords, the Government are changing their position since throughout the procedures in a...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 690 c1173-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not a lawyer either, but I have been called for jury service on two occasions. Becaus...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 690 c1164 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord said that a number of solutions had been put forward. Would he identify the...
Notes
Correction made to division list in Lords Minutes of 26 March 2007 - Lord Blaker should have been recorded as voting Content and not Lord Rowlands.
Subjects
Criminal proceedings Administration of justice Fraud Juries Evidence Judges Prosecutions Magistrates Trials
Legislation
Fraud (Trials without a Jury) Bill 2006-07
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk