---

Prisons: Population

My Lords, with respect, I think it should probably be our side. Is it not strange that at a time when the crime figures are coming down, the prison population is going up? One can arrive at one of only two conclusions about that: either that the crimes now being committed are more serious than crimes previously committed or that the judiciary is now sending to prison people whom it would not have sent previously. Listening to the noble Lord, Lord Henley, it occurred to me to ask my noble and learned friend whether the Opposition have at any stage suggested any sure and certain way in which the Government can accurately guess the number of people who will be sent to prison by judges. If you cannot do that, you are bound to have this sort of pressure from time to time.