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Pensions Bill

My Lords, I beg to move, as an amendment to Motion E, Motion E1, leave out from ““House”” to end and insert ““do insist on its Amendment No. 28.—(Lord Fowler.) I welcome the tone of some of the Minister’s remarks this evening, which are substantially different from what we have heard at previous stages of the Bill, particularly what he said about the principle of post-legislative scrutiny and seeking to put a duty in the Bill. Step by step we are getting to the position that we would like to get to but we have not yet arrived there. I am not very impressed with the so-called compromise being offered by the Government on when their form of post-legislative scrutiny should take place. Many advocate scrutiny after three years. I have proposed four years, but with the addition that the Secretary of State can carry out a further scrutiny at any stage later on, which I think meets many of the points that the Minister put. The Government propose their form of post-legislative scrutiny not in 2012 or 2015 but 10 years hence by the end of 2017. Frankly, it puts a whole new time-scale on the plea, ““Make me good but not yet””. Even then it sounds as though it will be only half good because I suspect that the review being offered is the Secretary of State’s own review and not that of a Select Committee. However, I may be wrong on that. I am afraid that, as regards the timing, the offer is impossible to accept. I suspect that that does not come as a vast surprise to him, the Government or to the department. I also do not accept the argument that we are now running out of time. The forthcoming business of the House of Lords is not a state secret; it is set out in the programme of Forthcoming Business, and for Wednesday 25 July and Thursday 26 July it is set down that consideration of Commons Amendments may be scheduled. I stand ready to respond to whatever new proposals the Government wish to make. I will be brief, as I have rehearsed my argument at earlier stages of the Bill. In essence, it is that some of the worst mistakes take place not because legislation is badly drafted, but because it is wrongly implemented. In other words, pre-legislative scrutiny may be important, but checking the legislation after it is passed to see that it is being implemented properly is also essential. We are not concerned with repeating the arguments used during the passage of the Bill, but in checking the outcome. That process of checking what happens after the Bill becomes an Act is supported, among others, by the Hansard Society, the Law Commission and by the House of Lords Constitution Committee. It has also been strongly endorsed by a number of influential individuals. One said: "““Parliament and government have a common interest in strengthening post-legislative scrutiny. From the Government’s point of view, it could help to ensure that the Government’s aims are delivered in practice and that the considerable resources devoted to legislation are committed to good effect””.—[Official Report, 6/6/05; col. 769.]" That was the noble Baroness, Lady Amos, when she was Leader of the House. Another former Minister said that she advocated post-legislative review, "““in order to illuminate and see what lessons can be learnt for the future handling of the legislative process””." That was Margaret Beckett, former Foreign Secretary and at one stage deputy leader of the party opposite. Perhaps the most interesting intervention was by a current member of the Cabinet, who said: "““In principle I think this is a very fruitful avenue for us to explore together because there is no point in passing legislation if it is not having the desired impact or it is having a different impact””." That was Peter Hain, the Secretary of State in charge of this legislation, who is now resisting the amendment. The trouble is that, when it comes to it, Ministers are in favour of post-legislative scrutiny in principle but not when it comes to their own Bills. It reminds me of the position with departmental Select Committees when they were set up by my noble friend some years ago. All Ministers thought that in general it was a good idea, as long as it did not apply to their department. In post-legislative scrutiny, they do not want to run the risk that it may be pointed out that their plans are not working out. I suggest that that is wrong and that the earlier the intervention the better, from the point of view of the public and the taxpayer. Pensions are a prime example. At an earlier stage, as the Minister said, I gave an example of legislation of my own, the Social Security Act 1986, which reduced and changed the amount of SERPS that widows or widowers could inherit. My then Minister of State, John Major, promised a major publicity campaign. We both left the department in 1987, there was no publicity campaign, and the department published the wrong advice in a leaflet. A Select Committee carrying out post-legislative scrutiny would have picked that up, and it may well have picked up the fact that the department was giving the wrong advice about the security of final salary occupational pension schemes, about which we were talking earlier, which led to the adverse finding against the Government in March 2006 by the Parliamentary Ombudsman. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, fairly pointed out in our debate on 11 July, post-legislative scrutiny could have helped in avoiding the failure of stakeholder pensions and one of the unforeseen consequences of pension credit; bringing more and more people into means testing. Potentially, the amendment could prevent error and avoid costly mistakes. What is the Government’s case? Up to now, it has been that the amendment is unnecessary. I am glad to say that they are now moving from their position that they do not need any advice. Now their position is that four years for post-legislative scrutiny is too early; for example, they say that the earnings uprating of pensions will come into effect only in 2012. However, the Bill is about much more than that. It is 65 pages long, with 70 pages of Explanatory Notes. To give but one example, the workings of the Personal Accounts Delivery Authority may be important for the success of widening pension ownership. Even the statement about the earnings uprating coming into effect in 2012 is not quite true; as the Minister said, the Government’s White Paper states: "““Our objective, subject to affordability and the fiscal position, is to do this in 2012, but in any event by the end of the Parliament at the latest. We will make a statement on the precise date at the beginning of the next Parliament””." Therefore, it could come in in 2015, and post-legislative scrutiny might want to point out the cost of that delay in extra pension credit. More generally, it might want to take into account any events of importance affecting pensions over the previous four years, which is the average length of a whole Parliament, after all. The Government’s case ignores the point that my amendment explicitly gives the power to the Secretary of State to have further scrutiny. We should remember that a second Pensions Bill is behind this one; I doubt very much that all the unseen problems will be dealt with in one round of scrutiny. In a sense, my next point is even more crucial than all my others. Some in the House may have their reservations about my amendment; the Minister clearly does. I hope that not all noble Lords share them; certainly, that was not the case in earlier debates. The amendment was originally carried by 141 votes to 138. It then went to the House of Commons. Any of your Lordships who wanted to check the argument used there for rejecting the amendment would be sadly disappointed. It was never debated. Ministers were never questioned. The guillotine came down before any Member of the House of Commons had the opportunity to say a single word. That is utterly destructive of the parliamentary process. The Minister says that the other place has decided, but it has decided without debate, questioning or words being uttered. The new Prime Minister talks of restoring the authority of Parliament. I agree. The kind of parliamentary scrutiny by a Select Committee or some other parliamentary committee implicit in my amendment would certainly help that process. Equally, I am sure that guillotining Bills so that the Commons simply does not have the opportunity of even debating the amendments of this House is against the interests of anyone who believes in the effective working of Parliament. For both those reasons, I ask the House to support my amendment. Moved, as an amendment to Motion E, Motion E1, leave out from ““House”” to end and insert ““do insist on its Amendment No. 28””.—(Lord Fowler.)