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Defence Policy

This has been a wide-ranging debate. I have always been aware of the level of expertise in the House on these issues, and I want to thank everybody for their contributions. It will not be possible for me to respond to every issue that was raised, but I will try to deal with as many as I can. My right hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George) treated us to a little bit of the history lesson that we have to listen every now and then in order to put into context some of the allegations that are made today. He did that very well. My right hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig) talked about the debt that we owe to our servicemen and their families, and he was particularly concerned about accommodation. He recognises—even if some Opposition Members do not—that a huge building programme is going on, and that some of the legacy issues of our single-living and family accommodation are now being dealt with. That cannot be done overnight; the neglect went on for generations. There are Members in this House who know that, yet they choose to try to deny it. However, I agree with my right hon. Friend that there are some big issues that we need to address, particularly in relation to family living accommodation and the right to buy. We are as concerned about and interested in those matters as he was when he did his job at the Ministry of Defence. I am sorry that I was not in the House for most of the speech of the hon. Member for Congleton (Ann Winterton), who talked mainly about procurement. I was a little surprised by her intimation that she is concerned that the Royal Navy is going to be dominated by the carriers. Yes, the carriers are going to be somewhat dominating features of the Royal Navy. If we want our Navy to have worldwide reach and the ability to project force around the world wherever we want it—be it air power or assault capability—the carriers and the protection force are the single most important way in which we will do that. That is why the carriers are so important. The hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) talked about the covenant and said that we have a debt to our armed forces that needs to be met. I do not disagree with him, and he knows that nobody in the ministerial team does. This is not just an issue for the Government. We need to recognise that we are paying back our armed forces for the tremendous sacrifice that they make for, and the capability that they give to, our nation. The nation also needs to recognise that. This is not an easy issue to address, and there are no quick remedies. It is not just a matter of parades, for example; we have to work on this. As the hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey) and others in the House have said, we all have a responsibility to address this issue, to take it out to the public at large, and to ensure that we all do our best—irrespective of where we sit in this House—to connect the work being done on behalf of the nation by the armed forces with the general public, whose understanding is perhaps not all that it once was. With effort, perhaps we can make that connection again. The hon. Member for Canterbury also talked passionately about the Territorial Army, about which I know he has great concerns. I intend to sit down with him and talk through some of those issues as soon as I can. In a wide-ranging discussion, my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr. Hamilton) talked about a lot of issues. He, too, was concerned about housing, and particularly about the priority given to our armed forces by local authorities throughout the country. He asked whether we were prepared to meet him and a delegation of Members of Parliament—and we of course are. I do not suppose that he is concerned about whether it is most appropriate for me or for another member of the ministerial team to meet that delegation. One or other of us will be more than happy to make ourselves available for a meeting. My hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mr. Hendrick) talked about our relationship with the USA. However, he was also concerned to ensure that we should develop our co-operative capability with our European neighbours, and stressed the importance of that for the future. I agree with him in that regard. The fact that the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Stewart Hosie) has certain problems was exposed in some of the interventions made during his contribution. If he thinks that he can cherry-pick the defence estate and imprint in Scotland, he will have to do some explaining—beyond this debate in the House—to the many people up there who depend on that work for their livelihood. The hon. Gentleman talked about cap badges and the history of the Scottish regiments. Of course we must honour our history, but we all know that we cannot live in it. Time moves on, and we must address the issues that face us today. There is a need for change, and although we must try to retain the golden thread that runs through our regimental history, we must also deal with the problems confronting our military in today’s world. The hon. Member for North Devon talked about the situation in Iraq, and asked me to explain the statement that I made in evidence to the Defence Committee in July. He compared that with the recent statement from my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, but I do not think that any explanation is necessary. I am not a military expert, and do not pretend to be. I would not come to the House and say otherwise, but the statement that I made to the Defence Committee was based on military advice given to me at the time. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister does not pretend to have military expertise either, but the military advice that we are given, and the situation that we face, have both changed. We are now able to consider the possibility of reducing our force level in Iraq, and to plan for it. Our forces will be backed up by other forces in the region, but the level that we will maintain will be lower than that which our military advice was prepared to contemplate in July. The hon. Member for North Devon also talked extensively about the situation in Afghanistan. So did my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Dr. Strang) and my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, North (Sarah McCarthy-Fry), as well as other hon. Members. It is a matter that we must look at very seriously. Sometimes, the feeling is that our military personnel take a narrow view of the matters that they are dealing with, but my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, North made it very clear that that was not true of the discussions that she had had out in theatre. The House should be aware that no one is more able to take a broad view of what people in the military are able to contribute than those people themselves. They know what they can do, and they also know what must come in behind them to ensure the nation building that has to happen if we are to render Afghanistan viable in the future. That is one of the tasks that face us, and our military people understand that as well as we do. In no way do the Afghan people want the Taliban back, but we must make sure that the growing capacity of the Afghan state is seen to be a force for good, a positive force that improves the lives of the people. A lot remains to be done, and it can be done only if we adopt a comprehensive approach. Equally, as various hon. Members noted, we must also ensure that our own people understand what we are doing in Afghanistan. The connection is not always made between what our armed forces are doing out there and the effect on the security of people and families here at home. All of us, regardless of which party we represent, have a responsibility to make sure that people appreciate that link. We must make people understand that what is happening in Afghanistan cannot be disconnected from security at home. Big issues are involved in that, and they must be fully explained and understood. However, there is a convergence between heroin, organised crime and international terrorism; it is a thread that runs all the way from Afghanistan to the streets of Coventry, and the streets of every town and city in our country. The elements cannot be disconnected. I have to tell the hon. Member for North Devon that it is not true that there are no dedicated helicopters for medical evacuation in Afghanistan. Dedicated helicopters are available in the field, as I saw when I visited Bastion, so if the hon. Gentleman has been given contrary information it is untrue. My hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk (Mr. Joyce) gave us much information, as well as a vivid personal insight into forces living accommodation over the generations. He gave the lie to the idea that the problems can be solved overnight. There has been ingrained, systematic under-investment over a period of time. We have made structural changes to ensure that will no longer happen, but the problems cannot be fixed overnight. My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) reacted as I did to the speech of the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox). Of all the speeches I heard during the debate, the two from the Conservative Front Bench were the most extraordinary. The hon. Member for Woodspring showed that he was capable of applying himself to give us analysis and a constructive view when he talked about Iran. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State was sitting on the Treasury Bench at the time, and neither he nor I could disagree with what the hon. Gentleman said. However, almost all the rest of the speech that he treated us to was a catalogue of misrepresentation and abuse of the facts. That does not matter so much when what is said is about the Government. The hon. Gentleman deliberately and repeatedly tries to present the case that there are cuts in the defence budget. He tells people that in television and radio studios, and he told us the same thing today. He denies the fact that by the end of the current spending round, real-terms spending will be £3 billion, or 10 per cent., higher than in 1997. As some of my hon. Friends pointed out, our record is in marked contrast to that of the Government the hon. Gentleman supported, who introduced defence cuts year on year during the back end of their period in office. What the hon. Gentleman says in that vein is part of the cut and thrust of politics. People do not always use facts when they are throwing politics around in this place; we misrepresent the facts and make accusations against people from time to time. However, the hon. Gentleman went on to attack civilian volunteers in theatre and, more importantly, said things about the medical facilities at Selly Oak. I think he needs to reflect on what he said, and the allegations that he made today. I visited Selly Oak on Monday. I talked to parents, patients, nurses, doctors and the military personnel who run that facility. I can tell the House that they are sick and tired of being used as a political football. They are angry about that. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Woodspring cannot be in the Chamber now, because I would be saying exactly the same thing to him if he was. Today he made allegations about a particular case. I will not go further. I say only this: the hon. Gentleman should read what the surgeon who dealt with the individual had to say, and he should look at the press release issued by the hospital tonight. Given that he has an expertise in this area—I am not going to attempt to second-guess medical capability—he should reflect on what he said and how he said it, and the allegations that he made.