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Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill

My Lords, before my noble friend responds to the points that have been made, I should declare an interest as a vice-president of the Association of Police Authorities and as a member of the Metropolitan Police Authority. I apologise to your Lordships for this being my first intervention on this very interesting Bill, which I have followed with enormous interest, particularly some of the more arcane points, of which this is no doubt one. It is a relief to see the marvellous way in which joined-up government operates. I recall that during the debates on the clause that we are now amending in the Police and Justice Bill I sought assurances from the noble Lord who took that Bill through the House that what was being offered in terms of overview and scrutiny and the community call for action would be consistent with the local government Bill that we had been promised would be introduced in this Session. That Bill is now before us. My noble friend Lord Bassam of Brighton assured us that there had been lots of talk between the relevant government departments and that what would be proposed would be consistent. Presumably, we can be assured that my noble friend’s amendment has been discussed with all the relevant government departments and that there is a feeling that this is totally joined up and that everyone is working together on precisely this point. I noticed that on 6 July my noble friend Lord Bassam of Brighton said on behalf of the Government in respect of this issue: "““The Secretary of State continues to offer assurances that we still believe it appropriate to include the police authority on the overview and scrutiny committee functions, and the regulation-making power in Clause 18””—" whatever that might have been at the time— "““allows for that flexibility””.—[Official Report, 6/7/06; col. 391.]" I should be grateful if my noble friend could clarify whether there will continue to be an expectation that police authority members will be involved in the crime and disorder committee, however it is constituted in any particular local authority. It is doubly important that that assurance is given due to the interesting definition of ““crime and disorder matter”” that will now be in the Bill. The definition of a, "““local crime and disorder matter””," as being a matter that, "““affects all or part of the electoral area””," means that there is a very broad definition of crime and disorder. For example, if you were living in a remote and rural part of Merseyside, you might feel that the problem of the level of crime and disorder prevalent in certain parts of the city of Liverpool was creating an effect in which policing resources were drawn from your local area to deal with pressing crime problems elsewhere. That is likely to be a common feeling. I recall from my time as chairman of the Metropolitan Police Authority that assumptions were often made in what purported to be some of the quieter London boroughs that resources were being drained from them to deal with problems elsewhere in London. The effect of this definition is that it will be possible to say that the crime and disorder committee should be discussing everything that relates to crime and disorder in the entire police authority area, because that will affect the resources that are available to deal with crime and disorder in the electoral area concerned. I am sure that many crime and disorder committees, or whatever they will be called, will have lots of other things to do and will not necessarily do that. However, this definition enables that to happen. Under those circumstances, being able to call on the advice and involvement of someone from the police authority in question who will be able to put those resourcing issues, for example, in a broader context will be an essential part of it. I hope that when she replies my noble friend will be able not only to clarify the question about how the definition is intended to be applied but to repeat the assurance given by my noble friend Lord Bassam of Brighton that police authority membership will be included on such overview and scrutiny committees.