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Public Accounts

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about that, and the saddest thing is that the tax credits structure was set up with the best of intentions. On paper, it seems that the scheme should work perfectly and help everyone to the exact extent that they need support, but the reality is that it is far too complicated. People come to me all the time who say, ““I'd rather not have any money whatsoever than be subjected to this system.”” That makes me wonder whether the Government should not look at tax credits again. Perhaps they should consider a fixed-payments system, as that might be fairer to the people whom they are trying to help. The wider theme has to do with the Prime Minister's approach to such matters. His intentions are no doubt genuine, but the structures are sometimes so complicated that they are out of control. Other reports that we are considering this evening make that clear. For instance, the report on pensioner poverty shows that millions of pensioners eligible for pension credit still do not claim it. Some pensioners find the system too complicated, while others do not want to undertake assessment on the telephone. Yet others find that the pension credit interacts with other benefits, such as those for council tax and housing, in too complex a manner. Once again, the question to be asked has to do with whether that system is more important than the person whom it is supposed to serve. Another problem is that the amount of bureaucracy involved will rise as more pensioners become eligible for pension credit. If 80 per cent. of pensioners become eligible for the entitlement, at what point will the Government decide that it should be universal rather than means tested? Most worryingly, the PAC report on pension credit found that certain vulnerable groups will be left behind. In theory, no pensioner living in poverty will miss out on pension credit, but the reality, especially in rural areas, is that such people are difficult to identify and to target. The experience with other schemes is useful in that regard. For example, Warm Front was a big, national programme that was easy to roll out to assist people living in conurbations, as the index of deprivation could be used to identify whole wards where poverty was concentrated. However, it proved very difficult to pick out people living in small pockets of poverty in neighbouring wards, even though they were in as much need as those targeted under the scheme. It is important that the same groups of people are not left behind by other Government schemes. Another theme raised in today's debate has been the poor quality of commissioning. That has further undermined the structures adopted for Government schemes such as the ones that I have described, and it has also had implications for service and for cost-effectiveness. The PAC report into the NHS IT project showed that there had been huge cost overruns, no clear idea about the overall expenditure on the project and significant delays to important aspects. The situation in respect of tax credits is similar. When I was a member of the Public Administration Committee, Sir David Varney talked about instituting a change in the operation of the tax credit system so that instead of payments stopping immediately when an overpayment was found there would be a three-week window to give the individual an opportunity to appeal. Sir David said that it would take a year to institute that one change in the computer programme; no doubt, since then there have been other unintended consequences that needed to be resolved. Those examples raise questions about Departments' experience in commissioning such services. What are the reporting standards when problems—relating to the CSA, for example—are investigated by the Department? One of my constituents had a problem with the CSA; payments had been made to the agency for the best part of two years yet she had received nothing. I wrote to the CSA on her behalf and was told that the agency accepted that there was a problem with her case, caused by some of the IT changes that had been taking place. The CSA could not tell me when, or if, it would be able to resolve the problem, but as it had written to me it assumed the matter was closed and contacted my constituent to tell her so. In how many other cases do the records show that a problem has been resolved when that is patently not so and people continue to receive a poor service? Can we be sure that the lessons are being learned? The Public Accounts Committee plays an important role in that regard. The PAC report on consulting made a series of recommendations, which were taken up by the Government, to ensure not only that Departments know how much they are spending on consultants and that they routinely assess the value of using them, but also that they share the information so that best practice can be adopted across Departments. It is great that the recommendations have been accepted, but what is being done to ensure that lessons are learned when responsibility is pushed down to local level? The Committee's report on out-of-hours services made it clear that primary care trusts were not experienced enough to know what they were trying to commission. In my constituency, a PCT took on a new deliverer of out-of-hours services, claiming that it offered better value for money. The result was appalling services that were internally audited so the people commissioning them had no idea about what was being delivered. Only when the matter was raised in the House did Serco pull its finger out and start to invest considerably more in the service than it had intended. If responsibilities are to be devolved to local government, or any other local body, lessons learned at national level need to be passed on, too. The same point applies to Sure Start, where the Committee's report showed that there were capacity problems and that staff lacked financial capability. We need to make sure that local authorities know what is being asked of them and that it is clear from the Government's point of view. The capability gap needs to be properly identified and the PAC plays an important role in doing so. It often has a vital role, too, in helping to fill the accountability gap; for example, in its work on the Rural Payments Agency, because people had no way of channelling their frustration, and on the NHS. Similarly, there is no clear chain of accountability in the CSA or tax credit systems and the Committee satisfies that lack. Without the doggedness of the Committee, the Government and their Departments would be much slower to learn their lessons. I thank the Committee for its excellent work and urge Members to continue it.