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House of Lords Bill [HL]

My Lords, I am glad to follow the noble Lord because I agree with everything he said. In advance of this debate, seeing the number of speakers, given that we have already had a Second Reading and having been involved in all the details of the Bill, I wondered whether I should put my name down because I was not sure I had anything fresh to say. My main reason was to indicate in the absence of a vote that I strongly support the Bill. Having listened to the debate so far, I am bound to say that I profoundly disagree with those who oppose it for whatever reason. I agree with my noble friend Lord Baker that further reforms of the House of Lords certainly will not happen before 2012 and I think that it will be a long way beyond that. The differences we have heard in today’s debate about what that further reform should be underline that. I believe that we are long way from getting that further main reform. These are important and much needed reforms for the Lords, and it is right to do them now. Two of the merits of the Bill are that it helps to promote the distinction that the Government have advanced between the peerage as an honour, like, but beyond, knighthoods, and Peers who will not only be Members of this House but will be working Peers. I believe that Clauses 11 and 12 help to achieve that. I say ““help”” because they do not achieve it completely, but they go some way to achieving that. Secondly, the Bill goes some way, especially through Clause 12, to reducing the number in the House to make it closer to the number in the Commons, which is the Government’s objective. I have to say that they have not helped their objective because ever since they claimed that that was their purpose the former Prime Minister appointed so many new Members to this House that we have gone further and further away from the number of Members in the House of Commons. I understand that the number of Members of this House in October was 746, which is exactly 100 more than the House of Commons. That is why I believe that Clause 12 is important. I do not know how many Peers Clause 12 will remove. Perhaps the Minister can tell us, based on recent experience of non-attendance how many he thinks it will be. Judging by the numbers attending every day, it could be substantial. I recognise that there is a flaw in that Members who attend only once every three months in order to register that they are still here could escape the purpose of that clause, but we will, no doubt, debate that in Committee. Unless Clause 12 produces significant reductions in numbers, it will either take a very long time through the Appointments Commission to get to the Commons number or there will be very few appointments in the early years. I share the view of my noble friend Lord Baker that we need to look closely at Clause 12 to see whether it can be strengthened. I now turn to the proposal in relation to hereditary Peers and non re-election. This is widely supported, and is the neatest and fairest way of dealing with this problem. In passing, I note that those affected by permanent leave of absence and conviction for serious criminal offences will under the Bill be entitled to vote for the House of Commons. I am not quite sure why those groups in particular have been chosen to be able to vote for the House of Commons. I would have thought that the right reform is for all Members of this House to be entitled to vote for the House of Commons, and I now see no logic in our not being able to do so. I wonder whether Clause 4 means that the Appointments Commission could ignore altogether the recommendations made under paragraphs (b) and (c). I hope that is not the case because it would be regrettable if that happened. However, this is also a point for debate in Committee. I believe that the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Steel, has introduced this debate and listened to the previous debate and adjusted the Bill indicates that the Committee stage will be very productive. I commend the way in which he has done so. We are some way from the wider reforms and this is therefore an important step to put right the things that need to be put right now. I am told that the Government are going to be neutral and I hope that it will be benevolent neutrality.