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House of Lords Bill [HL]

My Lords, unlike my usual habit, I did not come to the House prepared with any particular speech because I wanted to listen to the debate. I was not present at the debate in July. Although I read it, it is by listening to noble Lords that one gets the flavour. Those who oppose the Bill seem to have one particular reason for doing so—I should make it clear straightaway that I support the Bill as I believe that it is right. They say that it somehow pre-empts the decision on the final reforms, which are sometimes referred to as stage two, which may eventually emerge. I am totally against that argument because it simply is not true. Nothing in this Bill in any way pre-empts the decision that Parliament may in the end be invited to take and may vote on. The argument is trying to escape from what the noble Lord, Lord Steel, rightly said at the beginning are agreed reforms. They are not agreed in every detail—that has been made clear; we need a Committee stage—but the four reforms in the Bill seem to be things that most noble Lords agree should and could be done. I agree wholeheartedly with those who say that most—indeed, one might say all—constitutional reform should be, to use the word of the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, incremental, or should, as the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, said, proceed by stages. This is an admirable stage in the process. As I say, it pre-empts nothing. I do not intend to get involved at all today in the argument about what should follow this. I have some sympathy with the view expressed by my noble friend Lord Baker that achieving stage two may take rather longer than some of those who are looking to it as the next stage say we should wait for. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, was one of those who said that the Bill was simply mischief-making. I am glad that he has come back. I am greatly reinforced in my views on the Bill by realising that he is on the other side. We have been sparring partners for 40 years in one House or the other, and the fact that he opposes the Bill is a comfort. As I say, my noble friend Lord Baker has indicated that he thinks that this process of achieving consensus and reform is likely to take longer. The noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, said that it was obviously going to be a difficult process. There is no doubt about that. In the mean time, given that there are four reforms on which almost everyone agrees, we should go ahead with them. I have considerable respect for the views of my noble friends and others about the position of the hereditary Peers, but we really must recognise that it has been more than 100 years since it was acknowledged that that system could not survive. It has taken a long time to get there, but the longer the present interim position goes on, the less defensible is the process of the elections following the death of an hereditary Peer. Although I sympathise with that view, that clause is right. I support the Bill and, if there is a vote, I shall vote for it.