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House of Lords Bill [HL]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, for giving us the opportunity for further debate on House of Lords reform. However, like some of the previous speakers, I do not welcome the Bill at this juncture. There is an awful lot in it that is needed and on which there is genuine consensus in Parliament, including in this House, but there are other points on which there are quite deep divisions between both Houses and, indeed, within this House. Those cannot be ignored. Nor can we ignore the underlying change in voting patterns in the Commons over the past 10 years. I would like to hear evidence from anyone that there are indications that it will change and go in the opposite direction. Incidentally, I congratulate whoever was responsible for briefing the Sunday Times last weekend on the Bill’s intentions. It was a masterly piece of spin which elevated, on Lord Steel’s own admission, the smallest part of the Bill, Part 4, while mainly masking the fundamental objective behind it. Here I share the argument expressed by my noble friend Lord Richard that basically it is about the entrenchment and legitimisation of a 100 per cent appointed House of Lords. Perhaps whoever was responsible for arranging that briefing might care to assist my party with its media difficulties. In my opinion and that of many previous speakers this Bill seeks to pre-empt the business of the Government and their forthcoming White Paper on the reform of the House of Lords with the introduction of elections. Instead it pursues an outcome which is opposed by the public in most opinion polls and is opposed overwhelmingly by their elected representatives in the other place. While many Peers on these Benches may support a 100 per cent appointed House, such a policy would be totally rejected by my party. It would fly in the face of all that we have stood for historically—the extension of democracy and the greater involvement, access and participation of the people of this country in the government of this country. What I found surprising in the 20 July debate was how little regard was paid to the Commons votes for 80 or 100 per cent elections, although there was more mention of that today. It is true that some people have argued that there was tactical voting. But not one Peer—I underline this—either then or today mentioned that MPs had voted 375 to 196 against a 100 per cent appointed House. There has been no mention of any tactical voting in that vote. I do not believe that there was. I believe that was a true reflection of the feeling at the other end. Therefore, my first question to the noble Lord, Lord Steel—I pick up some of the points that the noble Lord, Lord James, has just made—is, in the light of that vote, how does he believe that the Bill could conceivably be carried in the Commons? I take it for granted, of course, that it will be carried here. Does he believe that at some stage the Government will accept and support his Bill, even without amendments to provide for an elected Chamber? I would be grateful if my noble friend the Minister would make an observation on that and endeavour to define what neutrality means in this context. My fear is that the way this Bill is being propelled will bring us into direct conflict with the Commons. There are already portents for conflict with the Government. I hope that I am wrong and I look to the noble Lord, Lord Steel, for reassurances that I am misreading the position. The best reassurance I could get from him would be confirmation that, ultimately, he and his supporters will respect the supremacy of the other place on a Bill on House of Lords reform which introduces elections to this Chamber. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon, referred to the consensus reached in 1999 and feels and hopes that we may be able to get there. He, of course, was not here then. But for those of us who were, at least on these Benches, it felt more like blackmail than consensus being reached at that stage when we were forced into a compromise that on these Benches we were very unhappy about. That consensus, or compromise—or whatever it might be called—was achieved through open threats that Peers were prepared to disrupt and derail the Government’s legislative programme. I have heard talk that if we are unable to get consensus some Peers, if faced with a move towards election, will take on board the idea that was used in 1999 and could endeavour to derail legislative business to oppose the change to elections. I hope that I am wrong and that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, and his colleagues will give me full assurances that such an incident is not likely to be repeated this time round.