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House of Lords Bill [HL]

If a Member introduces a Bill, it should be debated properly. The noble Lord, Lord Steel, has put down an interesting Bill, to which noble Lords are entitled to table amendments. It is wrong for some noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Bledisloe, to try to close down discussion on the issue. We are dealing now with Amendments Nos. 1 and 2, which are related to each other. In my rather curious position as a recycled Peer in this establishment—recycled inasmuch as I am here by quasi-democratic situation, as an elected hereditary Peer—I support the amendment tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness. It is interesting that the new body should be called a senate, with senators; he is quite right, and I hope that that will happen in due course. He is also right to say that there should be a de-linking of the peerage and the legislature. I hope that these things will happen in the fullness of time. By the same token, I entirely agree with the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Richard: it is sometimes entirely for the House of Commons to decide these issues. We wait with bated breath for these famous proposals to come forward. We are, inevitably, a revising Chamber, but we need to change. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, made that entirely clear. He is right to say that we should have democracy. If we believe in democracy in this House, or in this country, we should start to practise it. It is no good us going around the world pontificating about democracy if we do not practise it ourselves. The Bill and the whole reform of the House of Lords are predicated on that, which is why I support also the amendment very cogently argued by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and I hope that the debate will continue properly in the order which has been taken. The noble Viscount, Lord Astor, is right: if the noble Lord, Lord Steel, decides to occupy Fridays on the issue, he is entitled to do so, and it would be a legitimate thing to do. If he does, I shall certainly come here to discuss with other noble Lords, because the future of the House is of great importance to the nation as a whole.