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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Thursday, 17 January 2008, in the House of Lords.

House of Lords Bill [HL]

House of Lords Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage first day.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
697 c1500-44 
Session
2007-08
Department
Ministry of Justice
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Private members' bills proceedings
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
House of Lords Bill (HL).
Wednesday, 7 November 2007
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Dubs | 697 c1539-40 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may contribute briefly. I have found this debate most interesting; there has been not a mo...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 697 c1540 (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting debate and my noble friend has done a great service to the House. This ...
Show all contributions (133)
Earl Ferrers | 697 c1540 (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to interrupt the noble Lord but I am deeply flattered that he should remember what I said...
Lord Dearing | 697 c1538 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can intervene with one sentence: the more we seek to achieve, the less we shall achieve.
Lord Haworth | 697 c1539 (Link to this contribution) How right the noble Earl is. I hope that his remarks are extensively read in the House of Commons.
Earl of Caithness | 697 c1539 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, said to the Minister that he would not believe anything that the Mini...
Baroness Thornton | 697 c1537 (Link to this contribution) I would like to say a few words in support of my noble friend’s amendment. The thrust of it is right...
Lord Tyler | 697 c1537-8 (Link to this contribution) Earlier the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said that she found herself in the unusual and uncomforta...
Baroness Whitaker | 697 c1543 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more with the noble Lord about the valuable contribution made by individual Member...
Baroness Whitaker | 697 c1542-3 (Link to this contribution) I intended to stimulate debate and I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have entertained and en...
Lord Elton | 697 c1543 (Link to this contribution) Surely one cannot let that pass uncommented on. Many of us think that the right reverend Prelates ad...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 697 c1541 (Link to this contribution) He jolly well ought to be and perhaps one day he will be. Alas, I confess that I have not given as m...
Lord Norton of Louth | 697 c1542 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak briefly on behalf of the sponsors of the Bill. I recall that when my noble friend Lo...
Lord Strathclyde | 697 c1541 (Link to this contribution) I expected a bucketload of cold water to be showered on the name senate, but can the noble Lord tell...
Viscount Astor | 697 c1541 (Link to this contribution) While the Minister is thinking of his answers, perhaps I could again draw his attention to the Publi...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 697 c1540-1 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl will recall that I was the government Whip on the Bill and that I was allowed to deal...
Earl Ferrers | 697 c1544 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness must agree that she is being highly discriminatory, because this place is the Hou...
Baroness Whitaker | 697 c1544 (Link to this contribution) I am putting a point of view at the beginning of a debate, which I think is worth considering. Howev...
Lord Grocott | 697 c1544 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion a...
Viscount Astor | 697 c1536 (Link to this contribution) That could cause some difficulty.
Lord Strathclyde | 697 c1536 (Link to this contribution) I believe that my noble friend would be Senator Viscount Astor; there is nothing wrong with that. He...
Lord Strathclyde | 697 c1536-7 (Link to this contribution) Very possibly; it would be difficult for all of us. I agree with my noble friend Lord Ferrers about...
Lord Desai | 697 c1535 (Link to this contribution) Many people have made interesting suggestions about the amendment of my noble friend. My feeling is ...
Earl Ferrers | 697 c1535 (Link to this contribution) The amendment says that the committee should consist of, "““Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat a...
Viscount Astor | 697 c1536 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend supports a senate. Would I be Senator Lord Astor, or would I be Lord Astor, a member...
Lord Strathclyde | 697 c1535-6 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, is less prescriptive in this amendment than my noble friend Lord ...
Lord Elton | 697 c1535 (Link to this contribution) I have two points on which I should like clarification. First, if this was enacted as printed, presu...
Lord Strathclyde | 697 c1537 (Link to this contribution) It is an eminently good idea to use the Committee of Selection, which already exists in this House. ...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 697 c1534 (Link to this contribution) I would like to make two brief observations on my noble friend’s amendment. I remind the House that ...
Viscount Astor | 697 c1533-4 (Link to this contribution) That may, indeed, be the case, but I was referring to the fact that senates have differing powers. T...
Lord Richard | 697 c1533 (Link to this contribution) The Senate in Canada is appointed, which is one reason why it is so weak.
Viscount Astor | 697 c1533 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness’s amendment is certainly intriguing, because it suggests that the report should s...
Baroness Whitaker | 697 c1532-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 3: 3: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause— ““PART A1 Second chamb...
Baroness Hayman | 697 c1532 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could make it clear, as the Front Benches agree that it would be helpful, that Amendment N...
Earl of Caithness | 697 c1532 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that it has not changed. It just shows that Ministers in another place have no idea of the...
Lord Trefgarne | 697 c1534 (Link to this contribution) I have some other concerns about the amendment. It is suggested that the Lord Speaker should chair t...
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe | 697 c1534-5 (Link to this contribution) I would like to support my noble friend, but I, too, have my doubts too about the wisdom of this cou...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 697 c1528 (Link to this contribution) It is entirely up to the Committee, as I have explained over and over again. Either we stick to the ...
Lord Howe of Aberavon | 697 c1528 (Link to this contribution) Can I take the great risk, as a really non-procedural character within the House, of recalling that ...
Lord Bach | 697 c1528 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, will forgive me, it may be the feeling of the Committee that, alth...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 697 c1528 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but may I ask the noble Lord, Lord Steel, something that arose the last time around that...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 697 c1528 (Link to this contribution) I quite accept that the report deals with issues other than those in the Bill. All I am saying is th...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 697 c1527 (Link to this contribution) I think it is perfectly obvious which amendments fall within the scope of the four purposes of the B...
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe | 697 c1527-8 (Link to this contribution) Earlier, the noble Lord, Lord Steel, argued that the change that had taken place since Second Readin...
Earl of Caithness | 697 c1529 (Link to this contribution) I first thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, but I will pose one question to th...
Earl of Caithness | 697 c1529-30 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that, as it comes as close to being a yes as the Minister can give without saying ...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 697 c1529 (Link to this contribution) As I said when I repeated my right honourable friend’s statement, no definition has ever been given ...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 697 c1530 (Link to this contribution) Surely by any reasonable definition the reforms that would be enacted by this Bill, if it became an ...
Earl of Caithness | 697 c1531 (Link to this contribution) If the Government decide that it is stage 2—and they are the same Government who made the binding co...
Earl of Caithness | 697 c1531 (Link to this contribution) That is true, not as many, but things have changed. However, we did suffer defeats and I had to go b...
Lord Higgins | 697 c1530 (Link to this contribution) It is important that we get this clear. The noble Earl quoted from the speech of the then Viscount C...
Lord Gordon of Strathblane | 697 c1530 (Link to this contribution) Would it not be rather bizarre, considering that this House has on several occasions, by majorities ...
Earl of Caithness | 697 c1530 (Link to this contribution) Until the Government say that this is stage 2, I am working on the basis, with a White Paper coming ...
Viscount Astor | 697 c1509-10 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Steel, quoted from the House of Commons Public Administration Select Committee ...
Lord Desai | 697 c1510 (Link to this contribution) I missed, by some accident, the Second Reading of the noble Lord’s Bill. However, I support the amen...
Lord Tyler | 697 c1510-1 (Link to this contribution) Like the noble Lord, Lord Desai, I support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Richard...
Lord Tyler | 697 c1511-2 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, there are later amendments. I accept the note of caution. These are premature amendments. I...
Viscount Montgomery of Alamein | 697 c1512-3 (Link to this contribution) If a Member introduces a Bill, it should be debated properly. The noble Lord, Lord Steel, has put do...
Lord Howe of Aberavon | 697 c1513 (Link to this contribution) I think that probably inclined in my direction. The interesting contribution made by the noble Visc...
Lord Gordon of Strathblane | 697 c1516 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for giving way. It might be quite important early on to nail that point. Wit...
Baroness Quin | 697 c1514 (Link to this contribution) Like the mover of the amendment, the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, I was not able to be present at Sec...
Lord Elis-Thomas | 697 c1514-5 (Link to this contribution) I speak in support of Amendment No. 2 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and to emphasise ...
Earl of Sandwich | 697 c1517-8 (Link to this contribution) I want to respond in one sentence to the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, who spoke of the desire of some ...
Lord Trefgarne | 697 c1518 (Link to this contribution) I have never been opposed to reform of the House of Lords. In fact, my views are not far removed fro...
Lord Graham of Edmonton | 697 c1516-7 (Link to this contribution) I hear what my noble friend says. That is his interpretation of the vote. In a democracy, it is the ...
Earl Ferrers | 697 c1517 (Link to this contribution) I do not often agree with the noble Lord, Lord Graham, but I do on the limited issue that this is ne...
Viscount Goschen | 697 c1518-9 (Link to this contribution) I sympathise with the frustration felt by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, who wants to proceed very quic...
Baroness Thornton | 697 c1519 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Richard. Being in the business broadly k...
Earl of Caithness | 697 c1500-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 1: 1: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause— ““PART A1 The Senate “...
Lord Denham | 697 c1501 (Link to this contribution) If my noble friend Lord Caithness will forgive me, I wonder if the noble Earl has considered whether...
Earl of Caithness | 697 c1501-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, was concerned that I might be preventing a debate on parts of the Bill, but I was ...
Lord Richard | 697 c1502 (Link to this contribution) moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 1, Amendment No. 2: 2: Before Clause 1, line 7, at end ins...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 697 c1500 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Moved acc...
Lord Richard | 697 c1502-3 (Link to this contribution) Nineteen, is it? My noble friend may well be right. Most of the arguments have been heard. But, as h...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 697 c1503-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to oppose Amendment No. 1 and to speak in opposition to other amendments in the gro...
Viscount Bledisloe | 697 c1508-9 (Link to this contribution) ““Knockabout comedy”” is very flattering, I hope. This is a very carefully crafted Bill, which the ...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 697 c1508 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl ignored in his genial remarks that there is urgent need for certain specific reforms ...
Viscount Bledisloe | 697 c1508 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support what the noble Lord, Lord Steel, said, and I hope that the Committee will not be dis...
Lord Higgins | 697 c1508 (Link to this contribution) Will my noble friend repeat what he just said, since I do not think that it is true?
Lord Strathclyde | 697 c1508 (Link to this contribution) I said that the Bill will, over time, remove the 92 hereditary Peers by death. The point of the Bill...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 697 c1504-6 (Link to this contribution) I hope noble Lords will forgive me if I intervene early in the debate to indicate the views of the p...
Lord Strathclyde | 697 c1506-8 (Link to this contribution) We have just heard from the noble Lord, Lord Steel, a brilliant exposition of the frustration of wha...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 697 c1525 (Link to this contribution) I am now totally confused. There are some Members who desperately do not want me to speak and others...
Baroness Hayman | 697 c1524 (Link to this contribution) Is it your Lordships’ pleasure that the amendment be withdrawn? On Question, Amendment No. 2, as an...
Lord Trefgarne | 697 c1525 (Link to this contribution) I wish to make what I understand to be the position on the by-elections absolutely clear. In 1999 an...
Lord Richard | 697 c1523 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Earl is asking my view on that, the answer is no, quite firmly and definitely no. There...
Lord Richard | 697 c1524 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to see so many nods of agreement on the other side of the Committee.
Lord Richard | 697 c1524 (Link to this contribution) I stand corrected. The noble Earl is absolutely right. This is a free-for-all where anyone can speak...
Earl Ferrers | 697 c1524 (Link to this contribution) Of course the noble Lord, Lord Steel, can come back and speak to the amendments. This is the Committ...
Lord Richard | 697 c1524 (Link to this contribution) It is a pity that my noble friend Lord McIntosh was not here a little earlier on. If he had been in ...
Lord McIntosh of Haringey | 697 c1524 (Link to this contribution) It might be helpful if anyone speaking in this debate were to speak to the amendment, which I though...
Earl Ferrers | 697 c1527 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Steel, said in his opening speech that it all depends on whether we are going t...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 697 c1527 (Link to this contribution) I could not disagree with the noble Lord. It is exactly the same in the House of Commons. ““For conn...
Lord Denham | 697 c1527 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Steel, has probably not yet realised that the scope of a Bill in this House is ...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 697 c1526 (Link to this contribution) That is a very fair point, but the issue of the hereditary by-elections is quite an important one. T...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 697 c1526 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord. Does he agree that it might reasonably be argued that the measures ...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 697 c1526 (Link to this contribution) I am attempting to reply to Amendment No. 1. I am explaining why I invite the House to reject Amendm...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 697 c1525 (Link to this contribution) I am a bit confused. Is the noble Lord replying to Amendment No. 1, or what is he doing?
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 697 c1527 (Link to this contribution) Let me just finish the sentence, then I will give way. If we go on pressing such amendments, the Bil...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 697 c1527 (Link to this contribution) I have already dealt with that point. I am not suggesting that the amendments are in any way imprope...
Viscount Astor | 697 c1526 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord accept that the amendment cannot fall outside the Bill? It has been accepted by ...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 697 c1521-2 (Link to this contribution) There can be argument about whether an amendment that in time reduces that 10 per cent is actually a...
Lord Howe of Aberavon | 697 c1520-1 (Link to this contribution) Given what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, was just saying about his search for the widest consensus poss...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 697 c1520 (Link to this contribution) I think that my noble friend has made a number of requests to my department on this matter and they ...
Lord Norton of Louth | 697 c1521 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has given the commitment in government terms, which was to preserve the 10 per cent. It...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 697 c1521 (Link to this contribution) Of course the working group is considering the discussions on reform in your Lordships’ House in the...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 697 c1520 (Link to this contribution) That is a very clever question from a very clever Member of your Lordships' House. Of course, I am n...
Lord Higgins | 697 c1520 (Link to this contribution) Will the Government respond before the White Paper is published?
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 697 c1520 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend leaves the subject of the Joint Working Group, will he indicate whether the G...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 697 c1519 (Link to this contribution) I am conscious that the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, will not believe a word that I am going to say, b...
Earl of Caithness | 697 c1523 (Link to this contribution) Would it not be a good idea for the noble Lord, Lord Steel, to comment on these amendments? I do not...
Lord Richard | 697 c1523 (Link to this contribution) I confess that I am a little lost so far as the procedure is concerned at the moment. Normally, once...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 697 c1523 (Link to this contribution) We have said that we hope it will be possible following the White Paper to produce some draft clause...
Lord Tyler | 697 c1523 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down, will he respond to the specific point about pre-legislative scrutiny ...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 697 c1523 (Link to this contribution) The establishment of a committee is entirely in the hands of the House and individual Members. If a ...
Lord Northbrook | 697 c1523 (Link to this contribution) Will the Back Benches be deprived of an active committee on the future of the House?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 697 c1522 (Link to this contribution) I am very happy to accept that—it is a very helpful intervention.
Lord Strabolgi | 697 c1522 (Link to this contribution) The last White Paper clearly says that in the event of reform, Members of this House would not be al...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 697 c1522 (Link to this contribution) Now we are into an important debate. It is entirely proper for the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, to rais...
Earl Ferrers | 697 c1522 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord agree that if you have an 80 per cent or 100 per cent elected second Chamber, yo...
Lord Graham of Edmonton | 697 c1515-6 (Link to this contribution) Colleagues have spoken tonight about missing the Second Reading debate. I go back to the Second Read...
Earl of Caithness | 697 c1538-9 (Link to this contribution) I support the thrust of the noble Baroness’s amendment. I suggest to her that my noble friend Lord S...
Lord Trefgarne | 697 c1539 (Link to this contribution) The real problem with the noble Baroness’s amendment—this is a serious and not frivolous criticism—i...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 697 c1541 (Link to this contribution) The principle is supported by the Government, as they have said, but we would prefer to see it withi...
Earl of Caithness | 697 c1530 (Link to this contribution) I cannot, because I have not done that amount of research; I just happened to have the note beside m...
Lord Elton | 697 c1537 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend sits down, will he consider the use of the Committee of Selection to select t...
Subjects
Elections House of Lords Hereditary peers Public appointments Peers Parliament Reform
Legislation
House of Lords Bill (HL) 2007-08
Link
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