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Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill [HL]

My Lords, for the same reasons as the noble Lord, Lord Winston, I would like to say something about this amendment but I come to a different conclusion, which will not be a great surprise to the House. The noble Lord is right to remind us that we should see this in the wider context of the debate about organ donation. Having been involved first as a Liberal Member of Parliament and then as a Member of your Lordships’ House when organs were taken and used without consent by the Alder Hey children’s hospital, I know that your Lordships will realise that there is potential here for considerable controversy and inconsistency in the way the noble Lord has just described. I am slightly surprised that this amendment was not brought forward at a much earlier stage. If it is so crucial, why was this issue not considered by the scrutiny committee in detail? Before we incorporate this proposal into the legislation, should we not at least pause and give it further deep consideration? The issue of consent is the crucial one, not the issue of the creation of the human embryo in the first place. Are we willing to allow retrospectively this use of the tissue and cell lines of people who might have a deeply principled objection to the creation of human embryos? That is the problem. We cannot on their behalf take this decision. Certainly, if I were asked whether my organs or cells could be used for a particular medical treatment, I would continue to carry my donor card. It is an altruistic and generous thing for members of the public to do. We should follow the Spanish model of having teams in every hospital in the country. These teams have significantly increased the levels of donation in Spain in comparison with our own country. We should also look at the alternative of using the far less ethically troubled adult cells which can be reprogrammed to create embryonic cells. If we were to do that, there would be no reason for any disagreement between the noble Lords, Lord Winston and Lord Patel, and people like myself. Mine might be a minority view but it is perfectly properly held. I think there will be deep concern and anxiety outside your Lordships’ House if we agree this principle, which, as I say, is one of retrospection. It could be seen as a violation of the rights of someone’s body. We are sometimes properly swayed by the humanitarian concerns raised in your Lordships’ House, but outside there are also commercial considerations. We have to weigh all these things in the balance. The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, which we are invited to place so much faith in, is a regulatory body, not an ethical one. That is one of the reasons why we have been debating how complex questions of this kind can best be resolved in the future. The HFEA is not the place to do that. I was struck by an interview in New Scientist on 15 December with Professor Shinya Yamanaka, who, as your Lordships will be aware, is the scientist who has been involved in the reprogramming of adult cells in order to create embryonic stem cells. I accept that the noble Lord, Lord Patel, specifically said that this would not be for use in fertility treatments. Nevertheless, when Professor Yamanaka was asked whether he had any concerns, he said: "““In theory, our work means that you can generate germ cells from iPS cells””—" that is, induced pluripotent stem cells— "““which could be very good news for the treatment of infertility. So it is good in that sense. But I can make eggs as well as sperm from my own male iPS cells. What if someone took those sperm and eggs from a single person and fertilised them? The result would not be a clone because of the way cells divide during sexual reproduction—the fertilised egg would not be genetically identical to the original iPS cells—but it would be something ""very strange and dangerous. At this time there are no guidelines or rules that would prevent this. This kind of fertility technology is still very difficult so we don’t have to worry about it too much at the moment. But now that everybody can generate these cells, it could become dangerous””." I do not have a knee-jerk reaction every time someone comes forward with something that may be of use and advantage to mankind, but I believe, as Professor Yamanaka has said, that we have to ponder these things. We should not retrospectively give consent for something that is not of great urgency; it would not prevent the development of life-saving cures. There are alternatives that we should be using. I hope the Government, before accepting the amendment, will give it a lot more thought.