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Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

moved Amendment No. 53: 53: Clause 13, page 9, line 42, leave out ““two”” and insert ““four”” The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, in replying to the previous debate the Minister asked what it was we were trying to do. I am quite clear what I am trying to do, which is to prevent the crisis in prison overcrowding from getting worse than it already is. For that purpose, we must confine the indeterminate sentence to those who have committed really serious offences. That means offenders who are serving a tariff of four years or more; anything less than that will achieve nothing. The Government will just be driven from one expedient to another as the overcrowding gets worse. Of course it is a question of judgment, as the noble Lord said, but the Government’s judgment in this area has not proved very successful in the past; otherwise we would not be in the current position. When he replies to what further debate there will be—I do not suppose that there will be further debate—I hope that he will explain why, in the Government’s view, two years will be enough to solve the problem. Perhaps he will give some indication of why he takes that view. I beg to move.