---

Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

My Lords, I regret that the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, has not been able to play her extremely useful part. I know one of the points that she would have made, so, if I may, I will say it for her. We asked in Committee for a far more measured look at these issues, particularly violence, and their effect, perhaps through a Joint Committee of both Houses. We said that this was not something to be stuffed into a Bill in a small way like this. The Minister and I are clearly never going to agree on the fact. It is a matter not of personal conscience but of evidence. If we do not have any evidence to intrude on people’s lives, I do not make an apology. A liberal point of view is that we should not do so unless there is evidence of harm. Common sense tells us that the Minister is on weak ground because his own assessment has not produced any evidence. I could read the conclusions, but your Lordships can read them: it is the weakest summary of conclusions I have ever read anywhere. It makes no final conclusion at all on a link. I do not believe that we are going to agree tonight, so I beg leave to test the opinion of the House. On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 86N) shall be agreed to? Their Lordships divided: Contents, 30; Not-Contents, 66. Clause 64 [Exclusion of classified films etc.]: [Amendment No. 86P not moved.] Clause 65 [Defence]: [Amendments Nos. 86PA and 86Q not moved.] Clause 66 [Penalties etc. for possession of extreme pornographic images]: [Amendment No. 86R not moved.] Schedule 16 [Hatred on the grounds of sexual orientation]: