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Pensions Bill

I echo the thanks and congratulations that have been extended to all who have been involved in the Bill's passage. I congratulate the Minister of State, for it is always a challenging task to steer these measures through; my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson), who is a seasoned performer, but no less effective as a result of the number of occasions on which he has dealt with pensions matters from the Dispatch Box; the hon. Member for Rochdale (Paul Rowen); and all those who served on the Committee, who have dealt with the detail of the debate in a good and constructive manner. We have just heard the Secretary of State describe the Government's reform plans in glowing terms, but it is important for us to remember that we have been here before. Tonight I have been reading the report of a debate on the introduction of stakeholder pensions which took place in the House in 1999, led by the then Secretary of State, who is now the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Government said that 4 million to 5 million people would benefit from stakeholder pensions, and described them as an appropriate vehicle for people on low earnings which had been almost universally welcomed. So we are not exactly at first base when it comes to major pension reforms, and this time it is important for us to get it right. We are not without reservations about the detail of the Bill, and we feel that work remains to be done on the reforms, although it is true that few Bills generate such a general desire for them to succeed. We want this Bill to succeed, because it is in the interests of the nation to have a pensions system that works, but, as I have said, we have been here before. On 11 May 1999, the present Chancellor of the Exchequer said"““I am confident that, by the end of this Parliament, pension provision and structure will be set on a firm footing that will serve this country well for generations to come.””" That did not actually happen. Now, the second time around, it really does need to work. Like the Secretary of State's favourite football team, the Bill demonstrates plenty of promise, but in the end, lacks the depth to deliver the results. We have had widespread discussions with different stakeholder groups, and, as the right hon. Gentleman said, the Government have received plenty of helpful advice from within the House and elsewhere. However, there has been little change in the detail, and little in the way of actual response to the concerns that have been raised. Means-testing has been a big issue—and again, we have been here before. In 1999, the present Chancellor of the Exchequer said:"““The Government are aware that, because of the present capital and income rules, many pensioners who have modest savings or a modest income stream are adversely affected by the benefits system. We said in the Green Paper that we are determined to tackle that””.—[Official Report, 11 May 1999; Vol. 331, c. 132.]" Here we are, nine years later, discussing the same issues—in this of all weeks, when the Government are having problems in dealing with the issue of financial support for people on low incomes. We have argued throughout that the issue of means-testing is potentially fatal to these reforms. I am grateful to the Secretary of State's predecessor, the Minister of State, for initiating the debate on the subject, but I have to say that we expected more by now. We set out specific issues to be processed in Pensim2, but we have not yet received a detailed response. We have seen no detailed information about the sensitivities surrounding take-up if the means-testing issue is not addressed, but we have had private warnings from some of the groups involved that Ministers are not taking the issue as seriously as they expected. It is extremely important for this review to be more than just a way of postponing bad news until a later date. It must not be a case of ““What happens now?”” We need a detailed document in the autumn, a debate in this House and an open and grown-up discussion about what can be done and when, and we need to accept that the cost of getting this right might not exceed the cost of getting it wrong; the cost of not getting this right in years to come might be a much bigger bill for the taxpayer and a much lower take-up of personal accounts, and it might undermine the reforms. We are equally disappointed that the Government have not yet fully addressed other key issues, such as auto-enrolment into GPPs. We do not want that. We have heard in the debate about the dilution of existing provision. It is extremely important to preserve existing provision—the must Bill add to, rather than undermine, what is already there. As the Bill leaves this House, Ministers still have little answer to some of these basic questions. It is extremely important that they be addressed. I hope that they will be addressed as the Bill progresses through the other place, and that their lordships will have the opportunity to put these questions time and again, and if necessary to change the Bill to ensure that they are answered. We have other key questions relating to the cost of the scheme. It will not work if the costs are too high. We talked earlier about rumours in circulation about what the costs are; it is extremely important that Ministers lay those to rest. It is also important for us to hear more from the Government over the next few weeks about what they will do to address the concerns of small employers in particular. Ministers will be aware that a number of pressure groups are asking for more information about what the Government intend to do, and it is important that we hear from them about that. I have said that we want to get things right—indeed, I said on Second Reading that we want this to work properly—and that is why we have attempted to engage in constructive debate. We want to get things right not least because there is now a good chance that it will fall to us to implement the reforms. Given Labour's trials and tribulations, it appears ever more likely that that will be the case. Indeed, the Secretary of State is already positioning himself to become the next Leader of the Opposition. The Conservatives are making sure that we are ready to take over Government, should the circumstance arise in 2010. We are still not convinced that the Government have got everything about these reforms right. If they do not address the issues as the Bill continues its progress through Parliament, we are ready and prepared to make the necessary changes in 2010 after the next election, in order to ensure that when the reforms come through in 2012 they deliver a system that really will, as the Chancellor said nine years ago, last a generation and do us proud for the future.