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Health and Safety (Offences) Bill

My Lords, this is a comparatively modest Bill. First, if you do not happen to be familiar with the area and you look at it for the first time, you think, ““What does it mean?””. Secondly, you ask yourself, ““Am I going to be interested?””. The answer will probably be no. But it falls to me today to cover this subject. The basic principle that fines are too low is one that we do not have a problem with. For very serious offences that engender life and limb, the existing structure means that you face inappropriate levels of fine. The problem, as my noble friend suggested, is that you then come into the area of the reverse burden of proof. Once again, that is a subject to which I had not paid a great deal of attention, but it was explained to me that it is when you have to prove that you have not committed an offence. I am sorry to explain it in such basic terms, but that is the level at which I am operating in this situation. You can be sent to prison not because you were proved to do something but because you have not proved that you did not do it. That is the area of concern, as it seems to me. In addition, as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, has just pointed out, there is the question of where the buck stops in an organisation. Both those questions are ones to which we need a good, clear answer. Where is the process of precedent that is expected to be established or has been established? Please can it be pointed out to us, so we can make sure that we know exactly what we are dealing with—and that the business community knows exactly what it is dealing with—in this process? Then you will know the positive benefits of what will happen if something goes wrong. This is about punishment with regard to risk-taking and risk aversion. It does not really matter what penalty you have if you do not enforce it properly; let us not forget that, for a start. In what part of the process will you intervene and who will take responsibility? As the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, said, who in the chain of command will be in the position to say, ““No, we will not do that; we will not cut that corner.””? Where does that happen? What is the legal process behind that, and how do the two interact? That is the major concern, as my noble friend pointed out. He talked about the consequences of being risk-averse and how that could slow down the process of taking decisions on an engineering project, or any activity. If that is not clear, it could have great negative impact. Health and safety is always criticised for that. To be perfectly fair, everybody is against health and safety regulation until it is their little Johnny on the ladder. I fully appreciate that. People think that it is a silly regulation until it is ““me or mine”” who is at risk or has been hurt. So we must try to get as much balance as we can with this and address it properly. What is the process and what is the framework? My noble friend mentioned that things can go horribly wrong. Piper Alpha will always be on my mind. It was a very odd day for me. I was in Aberdeen, graduating from university. All of us at the university had big smiles on our faces, but all those involved in the offshore industry there were going round with looks of panic and fear because they were worried about their colleagues—and, indeed, many of them had lost people. It can go horribly wrong. Those in the train industry pointed out—I think this is where much of the objection is coming from—that with public transport disasters there seems to be a suggestion that anybody could have been there: that there is the fear that it could have been any one of us. The press seem to pick up on this and go for people in organisations, people who may not have any opportunity to stop what is going on. So clarification is very necessary to make sure that the legislation does what is intended—the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has been absolutely clear about the intention—and makes sure that those at the right point feel a greater obligation if something goes wrong and pressure is applied to them So clarification of existing laws and conventions, and how they interact, is required. If that cannot be given today, will the Minister make sure that all those who are going to speak and those interested in the debate know about it, so the legislation can proceed with greater clarity, at the very least. We have just heard that we will have the opportunity to make a small amendment or two. There may be a small one here, which I would suggest will not affect parliamentary time too much. I hope that everybody will be open to making sure that this Bill works properly and that it addresses the issues that need addressing. Once again, clarity and information is required now.