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Pensions Bill

I thank the Minister for that response and thank all noble Lords for taking part in the debate. Much of it has been more like a Second Reading debate than a Committee debate on the amendments before us. However, there is no harm in that, because the issues are important. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, that this is not a party-political issue. I have heard that the Government have been trying to portray this as a party-political spat, so I place it on record that I never intended to raise these issues in a party-political manner. I hope that the Government will not continue to spread that claim. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, that it would be helpful, after the Government have had further discussions with those affected, for us all to get together again in September. I also agree with the noble Lord that it is not enough just to talk to the CBI. The Government need to engage with all groups. I heard the code in what the Minister said about wanting this in the Bill so that those who did not want powers could be told that there would be powers. That unfairly characterises the position of some who are involved in turnaround and private equity. I am not in the camp that despises private equity. It has been a great force for good in our economy; it has achieved great efficiencies in many industries and has created employment. We should not regard anything that comes from the private equity industry as being necessarily bad. The industry does not seek simply to rape and plunder pension schemes; that is absolutely not what it is about. I hope that the Minister will go back to his department and tell it that it also needs to engage with bodies with which it may be less comfortable, because they have legitimate concerns that are important to the UK economy and that need to be taken into account. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, talked about the parallel with the 2004 Act, in which I was not involved to the same degree of detail. She said that the things that were being discussed were in the Bill. The difference in this case is that the subject of Amendment No. 130EW was not in the Bill when it was considered in another place and is still not in the Bill. The Government are seeking to put something into the Bill without proper consultation. It is appropriate to pause at this point. It is not as though the Government have a permanent right to recreate the Bill that they would have introduced if they had thought of things further back. Otherwise, the parallels are good because, as I understand it, people discussed the issues seriously during that summer and came back with workable amendments, to the satisfaction of everyone involved. I hope that we can get to that stage. The noble Baroness asserts that the regulator’s powers are not adequate. There is some doubt about that, but those outside the Government who believe that some changes need to be made to the powers are also sure that those powers need to be more constrained. That is the likely difference. The question is not whether new powers are required but whether they need to be constrained in other ways. Like my noble friend Lord Hunt, I hope that the Government will always bear in mind the fact that stifling innovation is seriously harmful. If they try to take powers that would allow them to respond to any conceivable innovation that they deemed to be malign, they could end up circumscribing the way in which ordinary commercial transactions occur and harming the economy. That is clearly undesirable and something in which I am sure the Minister does not want to become involved. My noble friend Lord Lucas raised some important issues, but we will return to retrospection, fair value and the new super-creditor, which, in many respects and despite the Minister’s assurances, it looks as though the Bill is on the road to creating. These are important matters, which we need to discuss for longer. My Amendment No. 130EY was discussed briefly in the context of the previous 45-minute debate, in which the Minister repeated that the Government do not intend to introduce regulations that do not deal with risks, particularly if the risks increase. My only point is that this is not reflected in the Bill. I hope that he will reflect further on whether the Bill properly reflects the balanced consideration that needs to be taken into account. This is not simply a question of whether the rights of members of a pension protection fund need to be protected. There should be a positive obligation on the Secretary of State to consider whether his actions will make matters worse in some respects. That is the point of the amendment. I will not press the amendment to a vote today, as the Minister asked, but I hope that this is one of the things that he will consider further during the summer. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment No. 130EY, as an amendment to Amendment No. 130EW, by leave, withdrawn.