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Pensions Bill

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. Being the eternal optimist, I see that he came half way towards me rather than half way in the wrong direction. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, who similarly moved half way towards me. All I would say about guarantees is that we are talking about schemes that were entered into 20 or 25 years ago when such guarantees were commonplace. Of course, the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, has reminded us of one example, but he with all his background experience will know that many other guaranteed schemes are being honoured by the companies with which they were taken out. That is why the returns are substantially better than they would be on the open market today. I think that the Minister slightly misunderstood my point. These returns cannot be secured today because the market has moved on, away from the investor and away from the person contributing to their pension. Annuity rates have come down in value and guarantees have almost gone away. That is why I made the point that I am talking about historic schemes. I would welcome the opportunity to give specific examples—I sensed that this was very much in what the Minister was saying and I am grateful to him for agreeing—just so that we talk through some of them in order to ensure that people do not lose out in what is, after all, a consensual approach to the whole notion of the new personal accounts. These have received a welcome in varying degrees right across the House, so during the transition period we do not want to knock out good schemes and opportunities that are awaiting people in their retirement and which were secured many years ago. In the light of the Minister’s kind offer, which I proposed during my speech and to which I saw him nod in assent, as is his wont, I should like to continue these discussions. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 3 not moved.]