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Debate on bill on Tuesday, 7 October 2008, in the House of Lords.

Pensions Bill

Pensions Bill. Lords Report stage first day. Part 1 of 2 records.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
704 c121-90 
Session
2007-08
Legislative stage
Report stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Pensions Bill. As amended in Committee.
Thursday, 17 July 2008
Bills
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2008-2437
Tuesday, 21 October 2008
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Skelmersdale | 704 c143 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for telling me that one of my fears is already covered by th...
Lord Skelmersdale | 704 c143 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 12: 12: Clause 8, page 6, line 9, at end insert— ““( ) the amount of interest ...
Show all contributions (115)
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 704 c143 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it seems only fair; it is the members’ money.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c144-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, a decision by a jobholder to opt out completely undoes membership of the pension scheme in...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 704 c145 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, you can do a lot better than that these days, even with reliable banks.
Lord Skelmersdale | 704 c145 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it does not matter when the calculation is made; what matters is when the money gets back ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 704 c145 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am glad that my amendment prompted the noble Lord to have some mathematics done behind t...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c145 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if the noble Lord will permit me, I can go through the detail of the calculation. I have n...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c145 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the rate of interest was five per cent.
Lord Tunnicliffe | 704 c137 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 5: 5: Clause 4, page 3, line 5, leave out from ““that”” to ““the”” in line 7 a...
Lord Skelmersdale | 704 c138 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is the second case today—and I hope that there will be many more—of, as they say on t...
Baroness Noakes | 704 c137 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am delighted to hear what the Minister has said and I beg leave to withdraw the amendmen...
Lord Skelmersdale | 704 c138 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, again, this amendment is extremely helpful and clarifies things no end. On Question, amen...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c138 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 8 and 9: 8: Clause 8, page 6, line 2, leave out from ““become”” to end of li...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c138 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 6: 6: Clause 4, page 3, line 17, leave out subsection (4) and insert— ““( ) A ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c138 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 7: 7: Clause 8, page 5, line 40, leave out from ““applies”” to ““(arrangements...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c141-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for this amendment and hope to satisfy him that...
Lord Skelmersdale | 704 c139-41 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 10: 10: Clause 8, page 6, line 5, at end insert— ““( ) If the job-holder gives...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 704 c141 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we like Amendment No. 10 and encourage the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, to press it to a...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c127-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was not looking for a cheer—well, perhaps I was. If the Government do not come forward w...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 704 c128-31 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 2: 2: Clause 1, page 1, line 12, at end insert ““, and ( ) who is not an exemp...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 704 c131 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I listened carefully to that interesting speech. The noble Lord is always persuasive; inde...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c131-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for his kind remarks at the start of his speech on the ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 704 c134-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. Being the eternal optimist, I see that he came half way tow...
Baroness Noakes | 704 c135-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 4: 4: After Clause 3, insert the following new Clause— ““Tax effect of automat...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c136 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I again thank the noble Baroness for raising this issue and for originally prompting us on...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 704 c136 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister whether he might be able to dig it out from the underlying ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c136-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall live to regret having made that remark. I shall blame it on officials because I re...
Baroness Noakes | 704 c122-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have Amendments Nos. 21 and 32 in this group, as the Minister said. They also address qu...
Lord Blackwell | 704 c126 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I welcome the amendments that the Minister has put forward but perhaps I may add my voice ...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 704 c125-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am glad that we have started in a reasonably consensual mode today and I hope that that ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c127 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for the constructive way in which the amendment was moved, and ...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 704 c174 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 42: 42: Clause 43, page 22, line 41, after ““Act”” insert ““, or any provision...
Baroness Noakes | 704 c174 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 45: 45: Clause 59, page 32, line 1, at end insert— ““( ) Notwithstanding anyth...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 704 c173-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 41: 41: Clause 43, page 22, line 41, leave out ““““reference”””” and insert ““...
Lord Skelmersdale | 704 c174 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, these amendments are particularly and peculiarly technical. In Committee I talked about th...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 704 c173 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 40: 40: Clause 43, page 22, line 19, at end insert— ““(2A) On a reference to t...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 704 c173 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their comments. The point is technical and it would not be helpful...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 704 c173 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a satisfactory outcome. I am glad that the Government have taken notice of what th...
Lord Skelmersdale | 704 c172-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am extremely grateful to Ministers in the department for thinking through the proposal t...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 704 c172 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 39: 39: Clause 42, page 22, line 1, leave out subsection (4) and insert— ““( )...
Lord Skelmersdale | 704 c172 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think that I am right that earlier he said something rather different. Whether he did so...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c171 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but I did not say that. I said that we appreciate ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 704 c169 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister reminds me of an incident many years ago when a noble Lord who had a stutter ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 704 c169-70 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 38: 38: After Clause 41, insert the following new Clause— ““Guidance on the ap...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c170-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment gives us the opportunity to touch upon transparency, which is at its heart. ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 704 c171 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was amazed—absolutely struck dumb—by the noble Lord’s opening paragraph. He gave the imp...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c166 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 35: 35: Clause 31, page 16, line 8, leave out ““the rules of”” On Question, a...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c166 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 34: 34: Clause 29, page 14, line 42, leave out ““rules”” On Question, amendme...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c168-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising this matter and for giving us the chance to di...
Lord Skelmersdale | 704 c166-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 36: 36: Clause 39, page 20, line 7, at end insert ““, and ( ) must not exceed ...
Baroness Noakes | 704 c166 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for confirming that the flexibility is in the Bill and for what he ha...
Baroness Noakes | 704 c163-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 33: 33: Clause 28, page 13, line 40, at end insert— ““( ) The Secretary of Sta...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c164-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment would allow the Secretary of State to vary the transitional phasing period ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c163 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 27: 27: Clause 23, page 12, line 5, at end insert— ““( ) Section 13(1) (qualif...
Baroness Noakes | 704 c165 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful for the clarification on how Clause 28 can be extended by Clause 138. Having...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c165-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are pretty much where we were when we discussed the matter in Committee. We are consult...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c162-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 22 to 26: 22: Clause 20, page 10, line 19, leave out ““rules”” 23: Clause ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c162 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 19 and 20: 19: Clause 15, page 9, line 1, leave out paragraph (b) 20: Clau...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c162 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 17 and 18: 17: Clause 13, page 8, line 10, leave out ““at any time”” 18: C...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 704 c160 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this important debate. I am not surprised by th...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 704 c155 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have heard a great deal today about just how little knowledge people have on pensions, ...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 704 c155-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should say first to the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, that the drafting of the amendmen...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 704 c157 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, given the noble Lord’s interesting speech, perhaps he can help us a little further. I was ...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 704 c157 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this does not relate only to pensions; this builds on work that I have done with Vince Cab...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c157-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in the debate and particularly the noble Bar...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 704 c159 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if we had a basic state pension anything like New Zealand’s, we would be delighted not to ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c159-60 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting, but superfluous, point. The amendment is also based on the presumption that...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 704 c153-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder whether I can make a brief intervention in this important debate to support the c...
Lord Skelmersdale | 704 c154-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, not for the first time, the noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden, has taken the words rig...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 704 c154 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I very much support what my noble friend Lady Hollis has said about the amendment. The ame...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 704 c190 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that consideration on Report be now adjourned. In moving the Motion I sugges...
Lord Skelmersdale | 704 c188 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, surely that cannot be right. When my noble friend Lord Fowler introduced portability of pe...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c188 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I did not say that it would not be by primary legislation; I said that it could be dealt w...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 704 c188 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a wide-ranging debate, but I found that an exceptionally disappointing answer. I c...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c188-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have not finished my response yet, but it is the noble Lord’s right to move whatever ame...
Viscount Trenchard | 704 c185 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Baroness has a point. One has to look very carefully at the way in which such le...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c185-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for these amendments and all noble Lords who have spoken in thi...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 704 c188 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before my noble friend leaves that point, can he assure me that the Government do not inte...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c188 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, indeed that is not what we are saying. We have recognised that as an issue; we have recogn...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 704 c185 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the noble Viscount sits down—and I am very grateful for his intervention—will he ag...
Viscount Trenchard | 704 c185 (Link to this contribution) Exactly, my Lords. As I reckoned that I was much better off staying in the defined benefit scheme—of...
Baroness Noakes | 704 c181-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 48: 48: After Clause 67, insert the following new Clause— ““Scheme orders: tra...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 704 c183-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, first, for tabling the amendment because...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c181 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord challenges me on a very interesting and important issue. I suppose there is...
Lord Joffe | 704 c181 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying the law and the consultation process, for his...
Viscount Trenchard | 704 c185 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I can confirm the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. I am a member of two defi...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 704 c184-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that was an interesting and wide-ranging speech. I am flattered that the noble Baroness, L...
Lord Lea of Crondall | 704 c185 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I very much follow the line of what has just been said. The argument which the noble Baron...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c180-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Joffe for moving this amendment and to all nobl...
Lord Skelmersdale | 704 c179-80 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is such an important amendment that I hope I might be allowed to utter from the oppos...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 704 c181 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful for that thoughtful response. Does the Minister agree that aggressive tax av...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c174-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving me the opportunity to bring enlightenment t...
Baroness Noakes | 704 c175 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I declare myself and perhaps the whole House enlightened by the Minister’s response. I am ...
Lord Joffe | 704 c175-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 47: 47: After Clause 66, insert the following new Clause— ““Policy on ethical ...
Baroness Northover | 704 c177-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise briefly to support the amendment and apologise for not being here at the beginning ...
Bishop of Ripon and Leeds | 704 c178 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, welcome and support the amendment. I do so partly from the experience of the Churc...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 704 c178-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I start by paying tribute to the Aegis Trust for its valuable work on the amendment. From ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 704 c145-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are talking—or at least the Minister is—about a situation in which we have 100 per cent...
Baroness Noakes | 704 c149 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, and the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, for their sup...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c148-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for the amendment and for the opportunity to make our position ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 704 c151-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, although I support the spirit of this amendment, the noble Baroness will understand if I h...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 704 c149-51 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 16: 16: After Clause 10, insert the following new Clause— ““Duty in relation t...
Baroness Noakes | 704 c146-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 15: 15: After Clause 10, insert the following new Clause— ““Protection for emp...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c146 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 13: 13: Clause 9, page 6, line 41, leave out ““rules”” On Question, amendment...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 704 c148 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is quite a tricky matter. I completely agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, th...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 704 c147-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I still have some of the hesitations that I had last time, although I have a lot of sympat...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c121-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 1: 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 11, leave out from earnings”” to end of line 12 a...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c190 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 51: 51: Clause 69, page 37, line 40, leave out subsection (4) On Question, am...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c145 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry to keep jumping up, but it is important that we are clear on this. I have expla...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 704 c163 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 28 to 31: 28: Clause 26, page 12, line 39, leave out ““must be at least”” an...
Baroness Noakes | 704 c189-90 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, including those who did not suppor...
Subjects
Contributions Advisory services Fixed penalties Investment Information Insolvency Ethics Personal income Pay Workplace pensions Pensions Personal pensions Pension funds Pension rights Pensions Ombudsman Tribunals Small businesses Tax allowances Taxation Pensions Regulator Personal Accounts Delivery Authority Occupational money purchase schemes National employment savings trust scheme
Legislation
Pensions Bill 2007-08
Link
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