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Adults with Learning Disabilities

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and he is making the point for me somewhat better than I was making it myself. What I am saying is that, if we take a human rights approach and assume that all long-stay hospitals must be closed, we perhaps overlook the fact that some people feel very comfortable in that environment and object to our taking such a paternalistic attitude. It will take a lot of work to convince them that it is necessary to close all the long-stay hospitals, if that is what we are going to do. I have a good example of that. I am one of the Minister's predecessors. I was a great campaigner for the view that older people did not want to be in care homes, and I never met an older person who wanted to be in one until I went to a fabulous new facility in extra-care accommodation—as the Minister knows, I am also a big campaigner for extra-care accommodation. The people there all had their own flats, but there were also some communal facilities, and I was going around everyone with my preconception that they were all happy to be in independent living accommodation. Indeed, they all told me how great it was—except for one man, who was sitting in the corner, so I sat down and chatted to him. I asked, "Do you enjoy it here?" He said, "No," and I asked him why not. He said, "I'm lonely," so I asked why. He said, "I made some mistakes in my life and I spent a large part of my time in prison. I'm not comfortable living independently any more. I want to be in an environment where I don't have independence." So it struck home to me that we must start not with our own ethical standpoint but by asking individuals how best to organise their lives. That is how we get closest to respecting their human rights—by giving them the dignity that they get from being properly consulted in that decision.