---

Welfare Reform Bill

I think that the ratio of £1 invested to £1.50 returned is saying that you can recover all your costs and, in a sense, be in profit, although I do not like to use that terminology in this context. That is a broad issue around the spectrum of our programmes. Perhaps I may deal with a couple of other points. The noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, said that "work for your benefit" schemes should not be seen as a punishment. It is not about punishment but about ensuring that the long-term unemployed have opportunities to develop work habits and experience that will stand them in good stead as they move closer to work. The noble Countess, Lady Mar, referred to the cost-benefit of helping the harder to help. I stress that we do not want to write anyone off, and it would be wrong to tell someone that they cannot participate because their circumstances are deemed to be too difficult. That is an absolutely fundamental part of our approach. I hope the noble Baroness will accept that framing the amendment in this way is not particularly appropriate, although I do not think that we are apart on what we want to achieve, which is an individually supported approach.