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China and the West

It is a delight, as ever, to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Nicholas, although I disagree with you and think that it would have been rather nice if the hon. Member for Mid-Norfolk (Mr. Simpson) had spoken a little longer. It is always a delight to hear his pearls of wisdom, whether they are cast before swine or not. I congratulate the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field)—I would call him my hon. Friend, I think—on his comments and on securing the debate. It is very timely, and he did not so much take us on a tour d'horizon as give us a historical outlook. It was a succinct and prescient look at China's relations with the west. As the hon. Member for Mid-Norfolk just said, it is difficult to assess quite what one means in speaking of China's relations with the west, because the west is multifarious, but perhaps I shall come to those issues later. I should apologise because I have something of a cold, which is the reason for the slightly odd sound of my voice. I am not sure whether it is a Peruvian cold, or a Venezuelan or Colombian one, but it came across the Atlantic with me last week. An anecdote may explain what I think our attitude should be in discussing this issue. I went to the theatre three or four years ago, and a couple there were having a ferocious row just in front of me. It ended with the woman turning to her husband and saying, "The worst of it is that you are so blasted patron-ising". He turned to her, kissed her on the forehead and said, "It's not 'patron-ising'; it's 'pat-ronising', my dear." That is a true story; he was a brave man. I would merely say that I sometimes think, in particular in the case of countries that are distant from us and whose cultural expectations and understandings are different from ours, it is all too easy to seem patronising. Even with countries in Latin America it is easy for British diplomacy to seem heavy-handed, aggressive or neo-colonial. Iran sometimes feels the same, and in China, the least effective form of diplomacy will be one that feels as if a heavy stick is being wielded, or that is in any sense patronising. The comments made by the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster about the global financial crisis and the changing role of China are important. We must see China as an ally, rather than a distant country that somehow or other we have to subjugate in discussions. That is certainly true economically for the UK, because the economic opportunities are very dramatic. In 2008, trade between the UK and China was up by 16 per cent. Exports to China grew by 25 per cent. The UK Trade & Investment presence in China is our largest presence in any market—that is important and as it should be. We have set ourselves a trade target of $60 billion by 2010, and we will achieve that only if we are able to proceed on the basis of alliance, friendship and economic co-operation, rather than through a more high-handed approach. The hon. Gentleman raised one issue—intellectual property rights—about which I disagree with him. Clearly, there are different cultural understandings about how intellectual property should be looked at. Under the Napoleonic code, there is a different understanding of intellectual property rights compared with that found in British law. Through international organisations that are involved in intellectual property rights, we have managed to find a way of ensuring that those who develop ideas have a means of progressing to economic opportunity. In the UK in the past we have been good at developing ideas but not so good at progressing them into the markets. That is one of the key points that Lord Mandelson has focused on and that we as a country need to focus on. I know that Adam Smith said that intellectual property rights should not really exist because copyright is a fake right, but I wholeheartedly disagree. I believe that those who have developed an image, an idea or a patent should have the security to develop it. Without that financial and economic opportunity, it is difficult to see how most people could secure the investment and the development of new ideas. Nowhere is that more important than in health. The growing relationship between the UK and China on health issues is important on several different levels: first, in relation to intellectual property rights; secondly, in relation to dealing with some of the major illnesses that face the world, not least HIV/AIDS and tuberculosis, and also in terms of reaching development goals in other parts of the world. The hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray), whom I consider a friend, having co-operated with him in the all-party group on the Army, referred to what he called "the fly in the ointment"—the issue of Tibet. On behalf of the Government, I would like to congratulate him, and the group that went to Tibet. It was an important part of British dialogue with China, which tried to enable China to understand better the concerns of people in this country and across the European Union. The European Union has tried to speak with a united voice on the issue, and by virtue of doing so, has been far more effective. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman, Lord Alton, Lord Steel and my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Derek Wyatt). The hon. Member for North Wiltshire mentioned the significant military presence in Tibet, and considered whether the suppression of pictures of the Dalai Lama made the situation worse. He wondered whether something similar to the Vatican City model would make more sense. He expressed incredulity about China's bothering to make the issue so important that it becomes a fly in the ointment, not only in its relationship with this country, but with many other countries around the world. That sense of perplexity is shared by Ministers and the Government. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Bury, South (Mr. Lewis), who is the Minister responsible for China, visited Tibet in that capacity to clear up the issue. He made many of the same points that were noted by the hon. Member for North Wiltshire and his friends when in Tibet, and he raised a series of issues to which I hope to return later. The hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) made several important points, and I am grateful to her for that. If she does not mind my saying so, I felt that she erred down a slightly Liberal Democrat line when she started comparing the case that is in The Guardian today—or not in it—with the repression of freedom of expression in China. I think that those who want to make a comparison between China and the "Chinese situation in the UK" are rather over-egging the pudding. [Interruption.] I see that she wants to over-egg her pudding even more, and I am happy to take an intervention.