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National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language)

I agree with the hon. Lady’s latter point. The hon. Member for Caernarfon made precisely that point, which I agreed with a moment or two ago. I do not agree that the Welsh Language Board’s views have not been properly taken into account. This LCO, then, is built on firm and clear principles and was subject to a great deal of consultation earlier this year by my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen, to whom I pay tribute. We have followed each other in and out of jobs. I hope for my part, though he may take a different view, that that is the last time. He sought the views of interested parties on the proposed order and my colleague the Under-Secretary of State for Wales and I have held discussions with a large number of organisations, principally from businesses who were concerned about the effect on them of subsequent Assembly Measures, and their representative bodies. That engagement was crucial in helping to frame the proposed order we presented for pre-legislative scrutiny and continues to inform our thinking as we finalise the draft order, especially taking into account the views expressed today in the Welsh Grand Committee. We are now, I believe, moving towards an order that gets right the intricate balance of interests that I talked about earlier, that builds a broad consensus on how best to proceed and that works in the best interests of everyone in Wales. We are doing so in the light of thorough and valuable scrutiny carried out by the Welsh Affairs Committee. As my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon has explained, that Committee recommended that the order be reviewed with a view to providing greater clarity and precision. Its key recommendation was that it should contain clear principles against which subsequent Assembly Measures can be tested, such as tests of reasonableness and proportionality, and consideration of the cost-effective benefit to the public. I found the Committee’s recommendation perceptive, innovative and imaginative. The Committee was right to point out that the Assembly’s ability to impose Welsh language duties by virtue of the LCO was not grounded in any specific requirement for those duties to be reasonable or proportionate. The First Minister and I agree wholeheartedly that the principle of applying duties reasonably and proportionately should be embedded in the LCO. We are accordingly modifying the order so that the Assembly will be able to impose duties on a body only if there is a means, such as a review or appeal procedure, by which the body can challenge the reasonableness and proportionality of the duties as they apply to it. The detail of the challenge mechanism will be set out in an Assembly Measure and the Assembly will need to put in place a fair and impartial system through which organisations can genuinely challenge the imposition of duties that they consider unreasonable or disproportionate. Indeed, the very inclusion, the very necessity for a Measure to test itself against the principles of proportionality and reasonableness will act as a deterrent in bringing forward Measures against any unforeseen impacts that are not reasonable and proportionate. In other words, it will act as a deterrent on the Assembly’s legislative process itself to ensure it gets it right at the beginning rather than subsequently subject itself to an appeal mechanism. The change provides a robust safeguard against any inappropriate imposition of duties. It ensures that the reasonableness of duties will be a key consideration in developing an Assembly Measure and ensures an important reassurance against disproportionate obligations being imposed on anybody, especially smaller organisations, whether businesses or charities. For example, as my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East rightly noted, mobile phone companies have expressed concerns about their ability to meet any obligations imposed. The proposal meets the spirit of the Committee’s recommendation, while retaining the category-based structure of the current LCO. The First Minister and I firmly believe that that structure provides the basis for clear boundaries for the competence being conferred, and the improvements that we have made as a result of scrutiny will enhance that clarity further. We are not persuaded that an LCO based solely on principles and tests would provide for the clear transfer of powers that we all seek. Let me briefly explain some of the other changes that we are making to the order better to align the boundaries of the powers and more clearly to define their scope. First, the Committee pointed out that there was an imbalance in the proposed order in terms of transport because it includes railway services but not other forms of public transport. Following discussions with the Welsh Assembly Government, we have agreed to modify the order to include bus services. That will ensure that the vast majority of public transport services in Wales are within scope. I would like to allay any concerns about the practical effect of imposing Welsh language duties on transport services. It would not mean compelling all bus drivers to speak Welsh to get a job or requiring passengers to use Welsh on public transport—that would be plainly unfair and unworkable. Rather, it may mean, for example, that signage and timetabling information at bus stations and bus stops is available in English and Welsh and that signage inside buses is displayed bilingually, as is the case now on many services, such as Cardiff’s baycar. Any such requirements would make sense. Secondly, we are also increasing the threshold for public funding in the LCO from £200,000 to £400,000 in a financial year. I am pleased that the Committee agreed the principle that those organisations that benefit from substantial public funds should come within scope of the LCO, but I am also well aware that the concept of the threshold and the level at which it was proposed attracted criticism during the scrutiny process. Let me be clear: a threshold is the best way unambiguously to define what we mean by substantial public funding. Increasing the threshold to £400,000 a year ensures that certain bodies of a national character, such as the Wales Millennium Centre and the National Botanic Garden, are within scope. Just as importantly, however, it ensures that local organisations, which receive lower levels of funding, whether in the voluntary, charitable or sporting sectors, are outside scope. A further change will ensure that duties cannot be placed on bodies receiving one-off grants.