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National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language)

I accept that point, but it depends on the order. In this case, the Welsh Affairs Committee was able to look at the Assembly Committee’s comments and concerns and react to them, so we benefited from that work. There are other LCOs that would have benefited from discussions between AMs and MPs at an earlier stage. I do not think that consideration always needs to be sequential, but I agree that it can often be a considerable strength, as in the case under discussion. The Secretary of State’s response to the Select Committee report is extremely encouraging, because there is a natural and human tendency within Government to say, ““Not invented here; we knew what we wanted to do and we don’t want to change that during the passage of the legislation.”” That is not the way that either he or Welsh Assembly Government Ministers have responded to the report, which again shows a constructive and mature engagement not only from AMs and MPs, but also from Ministers here and in the Welsh Assembly Government. Five challenges arise from dealing with the report’s recommendations. The first is to pass good legislation in the Assembly using the powers transferred under the LCO. That is particularly important when the Assembly only has a single Chamber and a structure that lacks the sort of scrutiny arrangements and arrangements for delay that we have in Parliament. The point of the reasonableness and proportionality test is not to increase delay or to raise the bar to make it difficult to legislate, but to ensure that the following questions are asked and answered publicly: will the legislation work; will it improve the situation; and will it be constructive? The second challenge is to use legislation only when it is needed. We heard evidence from the Catalan Government, which the hon. Member for Caernarfon referred to, where they were asked whether they needed legislation, because they had described a consensual approach to the use of the language. Their answer was yes, they needed the framework of law, but then they needed to concentrate on building consensus rather than using the law as a blunt instrument. I hope that that lesson has not only been heard by the Welsh Affairs Committee, but will also be taken to heart by the National Assembly for Wales. Actions by public bodies and politicians are significant in themselves. When the Assembly first convened and I faced the first questions, I was proud to say—I put this into practice—that I would answer them in the language of the questioner. If I was asked a question in Welsh, I would answer in Welsh, and if I was asked a question in English, I would answer in English. My expertise in the Welsh language is akin to that of my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) in English, so my grammatical presentation is not perfectly formed. I thought that I was being courageous at the time, but it was an important gesture. On the other hand, I am surprised at the Presiding Officer’s suggestion that there should not be an English and Welsh publication of the Assembly’s record of proceedings. I understand that that has now been withdrawn and we shall continue to have both. It is probably an expensive element, but it is not a luxury; it is symbolic of the equal importance of both languages in the work of the Assembly. My right hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn referred to the central importance of education, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon in introducing the debate. Protest has a place in political life and development, but the quiet work of education and the development of consensus and use of the language makes for change. Again, I stress that at the heart of our report is the suggestion that the framing of the laws should be used to strengthen that consensus, not to undermine it. When my first child went to primary school, there was one small Welsh-language primary school in Cardiff and no secondary schools. There are now two secondary schools and something like nine primary schools. I have visited both those Welsh-language schools during the course of the summer. I was massively impressed, not just by such a large and growing number of youngsters who, with their parents, were choosing to go through Welsh-language education, but by the quality of discussion and debate, and the outward-looking, international aspects of some of the discussions that I heard in the classrooms. I should say that I visited some of the non Welsh-speaking schools in my constituency, such as Llanrumney and Rumney high schools, and saw the same qualities there. However, it is the exercise of choice in that way that is the strength and long-term future of the language. The Welsh Affairs Committee has provided a constructive way forward. It built on the work of the Assembly Committee, which means that Assembly Members and hon. Members of this House representing Welsh constituencies have taken the step forward together. That is one of the key strengths of devolution. That leads me to the third challenge, which is for the focus to be on people and their use of the language, not on something sterile and arid or merely on legislation. A lot of the debate has been about organisations, companies and structures, but the legislation has to be about people and the use of the living language in communities. That is why I welcome the comments made to us by Consumer Focus Wales. Maria Battle, in making such points, said: ““Consumer Focus Wales will be working in the coming months to establish just what users want from any Measure that might follow once the powers are devolved. In the meantime, we will be urging politicians to ensure that the LCO isn’t so limited that it ceases to be an opportunity for Wales to legislate on the Welsh language in a way that is truly responsive to the needs of the people of Wales.”” That surely must be the right way forward. The full challenge is to get the details right. I agree with the comments made by the hon. Member for Caernarfon that the Welsh Language Society needs to become a positive influence in building that understanding and consensus. Its initial comments in response to the report were probably formed by the impressions that have been around for a long time, rather than by where we had reached as a Committee. I hope that the society will catch up with that. On the other side of that equation, the hon. Gentleman also referred to the CBI. I met CBI members for an excellent round-table discussion about the LCO, at the request of my hon. Friend the Chairman of the Committee, to talk through how our suggestions would work in Committee. There were three points about the CBI’s evidence, one of which I was going to make and which I used partly in response to the hon. Gentleman. The CBI argued: ““The key barrier to the voluntary extension of Welsh services in the private sector is the low level of usage.”” Moving from saying, ““If it’s not used, we don’t need it,”” to, ““Let’s work together to increase usage,”” is a positive development. That is the nature of what I drew out of its publication in August. Most of the CBI’s worries are about how the Assembly will use the new powers—there is a challenge to the Welsh Assembly Government to use the consensual approach, consulting business and engaging it in the process. However, that also requires business to be willing to engage with the Assembly. A voluntary approach is always preferable, but the voluntary approach has to deliver if we are to say that we do not need to go to regulation and legislation. If that approach does not work, the consequence is that we end up with legislation and bureaucracy. It behoves the Assembly, the CBI and others to avoid the need for that. The CBI concludes its comments by saying: ““Business in Wales remains to be convinced that at the end of the process the appreciation and vitality of the Welsh language will have been improved more so than the current voluntary approach. If the private sector begins to see the Welsh language in terms of compliance and regulatory requirement then we will know the LCO will have failed.”” That could be reflected by saying that if the Assembly sees the granting of the powers as an invitation to legislation, bureaucracy and regulation, it will have missed the point of our report. If, on the other hand, both business and the Assembly see it as an opportunity to provide the background framework that the Catalan Government referred to, and therefore work on building the consensus and the acceptability and the use of the Welsh language, we will have succeeded. I am still a little concerned about the figure of £400,000, as it seems as arbitrary as the £200,000, except it is much bigger. It might have been more honest to indicate the bodies that are intended to be brought within it, but I accept that there are legislative problems. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will consider those points when taking the matter forward, as he has already done in indicating that a much higher limit will be set. I also hope that the Secretary of State will ensure that the detail of the drafting makes sure that there is flexibility for the Welsh Assembly Government, in applying any Measure, to be able to make exceptions where intended. I make that case in case someone who had a very large grant in one year but a small grant the year after was caught unintentionally. But those things may be dealt with in the detail.