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National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language)

As long as my hon. Friend is speaking English, I will be delighted to come and hear what he has to say. As he knows, I taught in Ebbw Vale for a long time, and my duties included teaching Welsh history. The point that I am trying to make is that, as so many members of the Committee have said, the LCO deals with all parts of Wales. The legislation affects every Welsh person in Wales, whether or not he or she can speak Welsh. I would like to explain briefly how important the Welsh Affairs Committee process was, because when we consulted in January this year the two Governments had not agreed on the final nature of the LCO. They were not disagreeing but they had not reached agreement because there were difficult issues. Therefore, the consultation, and particularly the work of the Welsh Affairs Committee, has meant that we can make progress. If I thought that I was doing the Secretary of State’s job with the solution that the Committee came up with, I would be very proud of myself. In fact, the Committee came up with an admirable way with which to deal with the legislation, which is to look at whether it is reasonable, proportional, effective, including cost-effective, and whether it is precise enough. The choice of those issues is a credit to the Committee. This LCO alone and the way in which the Committee has dealt with it proves that the scrutiny that we apply to LCOs, however defective people might think it is, in this instance, absolutely first-class and the Committee did its job properly. I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon and the other Committee members for the way in which they have dealt with the LCO. There have been developments as a consequence of the consultation over the past couple of months. The move from £200,000 to £400,000 is good. Our dealings with the Royal British Legion, chartered bodies, voluntary and charity groups, and small shops, have shown that common sense is what needs to be applied to law. The Committee’s solution is based on common sense, and I agree with it. There are two areas about which I am still troubled, including telecommunications, which should not be part of the LCO. I hope that the Committee’s solution, which includes reasonableness, might answer the points that trouble me. When the Welsh Language Act 1993 was passed, the world of telecommunications was wholly different from the world of telecommunications today. I am not at all convinced that the legislation should still cover telecommunications, but the reasonableness and proportionality argument may overcome that issue. The other issue is about transport and whether the legislation should apply to bus companies. It should not. It is daft, to be honest, for buses to be covered by the legislation, and I am surprised that the proposal has emerged. I hope that, either in the final LCO or in the way in which the measure is structured in Cardiff, great care is taken in dealing with buses. I do not say that in terms of linguistic policy; I am talking about the practicalities for people who travel on buses in non-Welsh-speaking areas, which is 80 per cent. of us. People such as myself who use concessionary travel passes and cannot speak Welsh could be confused. A lot of our bus routes are kept afloat by pensioners, who could be confused and troubled by announcements or signage on buses akin to those, for example, at some train stations in Wales. I agree entirely with the bilingual policy but I think that the English announcement should come before the Welsh one in an English-speaking station where English is predominant—not because of any language issue but because of the confusion that may be experienced by older people and by others. When the Committee reconsiders the issue, I hope that it and the two Governments will rethink the issue, particularly as a lot of our bus companies are very small and some are experiencing financial difficulties. I am not convinced of the sense of including buses in the legislation, and that was certainly not part of the LCO when I was dealing with it. I would not have agreed it were I still Secretary of State, even though it would not in the end be my decision. In general, however, I think the LCO is a good one. It is right that the Welsh Assembly should deal with the Welsh language. It is a great story in Wales, particularly in areas such as mine, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn mentioned this morning, where Welsh has flourished and prospered largely because of the schools—not just Welsh-medium schools but English-medium schools—where Welsh is taught. That is the way to encourage the language, that is the way for it to flourish and that is why, of course, so many more people are now speaking the language. A language will not flourish or prosper because of signs in Welsh on buses. It will flourish because more and more people take great delight in reading, speaking and understanding it. We have developed over the years since the Welsh Language Act 1993 by tailoring the provisions of legislation according to the needs of different parts of Wales. The situation for someone living in Gwynedd is different from that for someone living in Torfaen, and it is vital that we take that into account. I urge the Welsh Language Board to implement legislation with great sensitivity and not to be heavy-handed. I am not suggesting that it is the case, but sensitivity matters with all these new developments. The last thing we want is to go back to the days when Wales was deeply divided about the Welsh language. Happily those days have gone. We must be sure to progress rather than go back in the way we deal with those who cannot speak Welsh as a first language.