---

National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language)

The discussion we have had today has been extremely worthwhile and of a very high standard. That fact alone shows the worth of the decision, taken by the Secretary of State, to hold this Grand Committee today. It has also been very important to have—not just for the debate today—the debate in Westminster, Cardiff bay and throughout Wales about the way we move to enhance the position of the Welsh language in modern life. It is very important that Members of Parliament have every opportunity to contribute to that debate, because we represent the people of Wales, just as Assembly Members do. We are as passionately concerned about the future of the Welsh language as Members of the Assembly. That partnership—looking at the best way to take the Welsh language forward together—is testament to the fact that the LCO process is working well. It is also important to have had the debate because, as a number of Members stated, it is extremely important that we do everything humanly possible to create consensus in Wales about how we take the Welsh language forward. When I was in my teens and twenties, the debate in Wales about the future of the Welsh language was, to put it mildly, not as positive as it might have been. The Welsh language was perceived as a divisive issue in Wales. That is behind us. There is growing acceptance that the language belongs to all the Welsh people. For example, I am a monoglot English speaker but I am proud of the Welsh language as the language of my country. We need to ensure that that attitude is shared by all the people of Wales. It is about the Welsh language as a positive base to embrace, expand and take forward. That point was made articulately by my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth, and I pay particular tribute to his contribution to the ongoing debate. The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire made the point that we need to strive to ensure that this is not an issue that divides Welsh people, but unites them. There is a great deal of unanimity on that approach. Consultation is vital if a true consensus is to be constructed. In that respect, I would like to mention, in particular, my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen and his decision, when Secretary of State for Wales, to ensure that there was as broad and intense a consultation in Wales as possible. That helped to lay the foundations for the great progress that has taken us to where we are today. The legislative competence order that emerges from the process will be, as a consequence of the debate and consensus that has been created, far stronger and more coherent, acceptable and dynamic than many people initially thought possible. We also have to recognise that the Welsh Affairs Committee has made a distinct and vital contribution to that process. Several extremely positive suggestions have been made, in particular the concepts of reasonableness and proportionality, and it is widely accepted that the legislative competence order will be that much stronger because of the introduction of those concepts. As we come to the end of the process, we should take stock and realise where we are, with regard to the acceptance of the progress that has been made. It is true that concern has been expressed by the business community in Wales about how the LCO was developing, but it is extremely significant that the CBI has issued a statement warmly welcoming the changes to the Welsh language LCO, stating that ““it is significant that this has now been written onto the face of the LCO.”” Equally, concern has been expressed with regard to telecommunications. My right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen made particular mention of that. It is important to note that the Mobile Broadband Group has issued a note to MPs stating that it welcomes the Welsh Affairs Committee’s report and the fact that the Secretary of State has indicated that the duties of reasonableness and proportionality will be included, along with an appeals process. Of course, there are issues that still need to be addressed, as far as the business community is concerned, and problems with telecommunications that need to be overcome, but it is important to recognise that the debate between us, the Wales Office and the Welsh Assembly Government has been extremely positive. I believe that when we come to the Measure stage many of the concerns that have been highlighted consistently by Members and by the business community will be firmly taken into account by the Welsh Assembly Government. Consumer Focus Wales is another an organisation that has welcomed the progress that has been achieved. It issued a statement urging MPs to support the LCO and use our influence to ensure that it is as broad as possible, within certain parameters, to allow the Assembly to legislate as appropriate. Several Members raised specific points during the debate. For example, reference was made to the Welsh language commissioner, but I think that it is right, as the Welsh Affairs Committee has said consistently, that we do not allow ourselves to be drawn into prejudging what the Welsh Assembly Government may decide to propose on the basis of the LCO. It is for them to decide the parameters and the specificity of what the commissioner will do. The hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham asked several questions in her contribution at the start of the debate. She questioned the logic of having a £400,000 threshold, rather than a £200,000 one—a point that several Members made. It was one of the issues raised with me when I gave evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee. After careful consideration, it is necessary in my view to ensure that a clear boundary is set, to define what is substantial public funding. That cannot be left as a nebulous, vague concept. There has to be some sort of limit. I believe that the increase in the threshold from £200,000 to £400,000 is important because it will ensure that key organisations of a national character, such as the National Botanic Garden, will definitely come into scope, but that local, voluntary, charitable and sporting bodies will not. That is a reasonable figure, about which a lot of discussion has taken place. Another issue raised by several hon. Members, particularly my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen, is the suggestion that buses should be included. It is important to recognise that that is one of the suggestions made by the Welsh Affairs Committee, which pointed out that there was perhaps an inconsistency: although we are talking about trains, we are not talking about buses. We need some sort of uniformity in our approach. However, it is also important, as the Secretary of State said, to emphasise that we are not talking about a ““one size fits all”” approach. If we consider the particularities of what might happen in terms of the Measure, it might be reasonable for the Welsh Assembly Government to come forward with proposals for Welsh to be used on bus stop signs, particularly in Welsh-speaking areas. That seems entirely reasonable.