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House of Lords: Code of Conduct

My Lords, I would like to be able satisfy the noble Lord, but that will not be possible because we take very different views. My view is that the code as it stands should be adopted today. It is clear what the code states: that Members should sign a declaration at the beginning of the next Parliament that they will adhere to the code of conduct. In answer to my noble friend Lord Lea, in a way, it is dancing on pinheads, because we all want to be fundamentally honest. This is just a public testimony of our wish to adhere to the code of conduct. As I said, I do not think that it is demeaning in any shape or form. The noble Baroness, Lady D'Souza, made some interesting observations about the size of the House and some interesting proposals about retirement. I am glad that she raised those issues. We should think about those things in the future and discuss them further, but perhaps not today. I would, however, draw the House’s attention to Clause 32 of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill, currently in the other place, which enables or allows a Member to resign. I warmly welcome the contribution from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester and entirely understand why, due to the Changing of the Guard, the Lords Spiritual did not give evidence to the Eames committee. Although respecting the code of conduct, like the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, I do not think that the Lords Spiritual should be required to refrain from their specific role of advocacy in this House. It is hard to envisage circumstances in which a Bishop would advocate matters to be of exclusive benefit to the Church, but if there are differing views on that, perhaps that is a matter for the sub-committee. I move on to two or three important issues raised in today's debate. My noble friend Lord Soley raised the issue of the words "shared by few others" in paragraph 15 of the code. The entire sentence is taken verbatim from the 1995 resolution and was later included in the Companion. The Eames group took the view that, rather than change an accepted term, and thereby focus on it, it was better to leave it to the discretion of members and officials to work out the meaning on a case-by-case basis. In the absence of definition, the words should be understood in the most obvious, literal way possible. A Member could have a shareholding in a major bank, say, but that would be an interest shared by many thousands of people. On the other hand, a majority shareholding in a private family business would be shared by few others, and special caution would therefore be required. The rule has been in place for almost 15 years without causing undue difficulty, but it may well be that the sub-committee will wish to consider whether further definition could be incorporated within the guide. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, for his broad support, and I will certainly refer the specific point he raised with me to the sub-committee. I am also grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Williamson. I note the point made by my noble friend Lord Lea of Crondall about this not being a part-time House. I believe that we have a rich and varied House and that Members rightly spend varying degrees of time in the House. The noble Lord, Lord Cope, drew our attention to important issues that must be addressed by the sub-committee, and I am glad that we will continue to benefit from his wisdom and common sense as a member of that committee. Yes, we will have to ensure that there is no duplication between the Clerk's role as accounting officer—that is, working with internal and external audit and the Audit Committee—and the role of the commissioner, and there will have to be proper co-ordination. However, the commissioner's role is quite specific: investigating specific complaints against a Member. The role of the Clerk of the Parliaments, the Finance Department and the auditors is to consider the regularity, propriety, et cetera, of our systems across the administration. Also, the House of Commons has had a commissioner for some years who has worked alongside the accounting officer. I tend to agree with the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, that currently we place the Clerk of the Parliaments in a somewhat invidious role. I hope that, in future, his role will be somewhat easier. My noble friend Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe raised some crucial issues. We certainly need to avoid issues that have led to past problems, and that requires clear guidance. I note that my noble friend is still with Accenture, but that he will end his contract in due course if the code is adopted. I am grateful to him for that and for his openness. I add that the code would not be enforced until 1 April, so my noble friend and others who may be in a similar situation have time to extricate themselves from current contracts. In relation to the register of passes for the staff of Members, my noble friend is correct to say that that is an issue that should perhaps be dealt with or considered by the sub-committee in its deliberations on the guidance, but that is a matter for the sub-committee. My noble friend also raised the issue of a model contract. I am informed that although the registrar and staff of the House of course advise Members as best they can, Members will be aware that it is not as simple as just including in a contract a reference to the provisions of the code of conduct. Parliamentary privilege means that a court could find it difficult, if not impossible, to construe the code in resolving any subsequent dispute. We would need to be cautious in offering advice that could end up creating difficulty for Members. Having said that, I have a degree of sympathy for my noble friend’s point. I should like to look at that a little further, but that will be for the sub-committee. My noble friend asked why delete, ""but they may do so if they wish"," from paragraph 14 of the present code. The problem is inconsistency, and what the group calls "registration creep". If some Members disclose remuneration information, it puts moral pressure on others to disclose, so consistency is the key. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Jay, in his role as the chair of HoLAC, and for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford. He is right about the importance of the guidance, but I am sure that he will have heeded the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, that her committee will work swiftly and with care on the guidance. Of course, it will come back to this House for approval—we should not forget that. The question of case law is extremely important, and it will serve us well in the coming years. My noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis asked whether he should be banned from speaking on matters that are relevant to his work for BALPA. The sub-committee will wish to look very carefully at the issue of representative bodies and how it relates to the no paid advocacy rule. The general principle is set out in paragraph 25 of the guide, but the sub-committee will no doubt wish to reflect the comments made in this debate. In the mean time, noble Lords would be well advised to exercise caution. I think that I have dealt with many of the issues that have been raised today, and I am confident that any issues that I have not considered will be properly considered by the sub-committee in due course if today’s Motions are approved. I ask the House strongly to support the two Motions before us today and to reject the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon. I believe this House acknowledges that we need to make changes—that is contained in the Motions before us—but we also need to ensure that we maintain points of principle that are important to this House, of which the principle and practice of personal honour is the most significant. That is what we have before us today. The report of the Eames group strikes a balance between continuity and change: the new steps that we need to take, including taking full account of the public interest, combined with current principles, such as personal honour, which are central to this House. Members are rightly concerned about the detail, implementation and operation of the recommendations of the Eames report, as the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, said. They have rightly raised issues of concern in today’s debate and in previous discussions, and I hope that I have gone some way, both today and earlier, to help Members with those issues. I do believe that the Eames report offers the right blueprint for this House and that the measures that are drawn from the report and that form the basis of the Motions are right: for this House, for the Members of this House, for Parliament and politics, and for the public beyond—the public whom we serve. We have the opportunity today to make the right decision. This is an important step forward for this House and beyond, and I urge noble Lords to take it. Motion agreed.