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Digital Economy Bill [HL]

I shall not agree with the amendments but at least I shall take most of the House with me when I express our constructive approach to these very difficult problems, as opposed to Opposition Front Bench Members who seem to throw up their hands in horror and say that nothing can be done. I shall turn to what can be done in a moment. Of course, I entirely sympathise with the objectives behind the amendments and the concern about the safety of children on the internet or when using other modern communication devices. We showed the importance we attach to this by commissioning the recent report, to which much reference has been made in the past hour, from Dr Tanya Byron entitled Safer Children in a Digital World. We did not merely accept all her recommendations but—this may take the breath away of noble Lords who can adopt from time to time a somewhat critical stance with regard to the Government—we have already seen action on them. The work is being led by the UK Council for Child Internet Safety, which was set up in December and brings together the Government, law enforcement agencies—I am glad that the issue of the law and how effective it can be has come up in these discussions—charities, other NGOs and a wide range of companies. The council has been hard at work since its foundation. It is already doing much to promote a greater understanding of online safety among children and, crucially, their parents and carers, and to improve education in schools by making online safety part of the curriculum. The council is also working with industry to implement effective regulation of online services that children use, which will be reviewed independently to test how effectively safeguards work. I agree with the representations made this evening about needing to know the effectiveness of the action taken. In addition, the council will launch the Click Clever, Click Safe public awareness campaign with an online version of the green cross code—Zip it, Block it, Flag it—which is intended to see the digital code become as familiar as the green cross code was to communicate with parents. I heard what the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, said about parents’ awareness. I could not agree more, but a great deal of the difficulty is not that children conceal things from their parents, but that their parents are unaware of what they ought to be looking at and for. That is what this process is designed to deliver. The work of the council already anticipates two points that were made in this discussion. It has already said that it is important that monitoring is carried out. There is no doubt that we need to see monitoring of performance against the codes of conduct, and the council has stated that it will take responsibility for ensuring that that is done. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, indicated that tomorrow is Safer Internet day. That is a Europe-wide sponsored event, but the council supports it and is launching its public awareness campaign tomorrow as part of developments on that day. The answer to the well founded anxieties about these issues is that action is already being taken and largely takes on board the points raised in this debate, save for the issues raised by Amendment 255A. I am eager to confront the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, on his rather negative stance with regard to this, although I am not too sure that I eagerly accept his invitation to clash with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, on how the law will be affected. It is a serious problem that children using the relative anonymity of the internet can purchase age-restricted goods and services that they would find hard to get if they were buying them in person. However, we already have clear laws in place. The issue is enforcement. That was the question that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, identified, and he was followed by several other noble Lords who have contributed to this debate and by the right reverend Prelate. The Government’s principle is quite clear and it underpins the law: what is illegal offline is also illegal online. There is no distinction between the two; there are no separate laws. The Bill cannot be used to create a different framework from what obtains elsewhere. The issue is how we enforce the law. The right reverend Prelate identified the fact that business has a clear interest that if the law is to be effectively enforced, it must be universal or else there will be a comparative advantage to those who break and defy the law. We have recently seen slightly safer, although difficult, areas. On the selling of tobacco, although we never rest content, we are somewhat reassured about how the law is enforced. On alcohol, the challenges still remain. The degree of public concern about the sale of alcohol to young people is being reflected in business practice across the country and the widespread public concern and anxiety that action should be taken. By the same token, that has to apply online. Retailers must already have robust systems for verifying the age of their customers and can be challenged and brought before the courts if they fail to carry out verification and sell to underage customers. We have got to make sure that that obtains for the sale of goods and services online. I share the Committee’s anxieties. I am trying to go one considerable stage further, almost the diametric opposite to the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, who identified the problem with his usual accuracy but is doubtful whether there is any solution. There is a clear solution. Public opinion is demanding of government, law enforcers and the community. The council brings together all those who are concerned with effective action to protect our children and guarantee that the law is effectively enforced. The structure is there. There is no need to amend the Bill. What we need is public awareness, public action and action by all those with responsibility for the safety of our children. That is the basis of the Government’s position. The final one, which these amendments contradict, is that what is unlawful offline is also unlawful online. I hope the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment on that basis.