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Norwich and Norfolk (Structural Changes) Order 2010

My Lords, a little over 10 minutes ago the Minister told us that his troops were leaving. My Chief Whip tells me that our troops are staying, so I am inclined—indeed, I am sorely tempted—to reply at least at equal length to all the points that the Minister has made. However, I shall resist that temptation because it simply would not be fair, and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, is looking at me particularly crossly for suggesting it. We have debated this matter for nearly three hours. The points have been very well made and there is no need for me to rehearse them now. I think that all those here who have taken part in and listened to the debate know whether they are for or against these orders. I simply want to make some closing remarks to those who are against, and in most cases strongly against, the orders. My amendment and that of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, are virtually identical. In fact, they are identical, save for two important points. The noble and learned Baroness’s amendment simply regrets the orders that many noble Lords have spent much of the past three hours saying are so wrong. One noble Lord suggested that, if passed, that amendment would delay the Government. It will not delay the Government. That is the whole point—the Government will not take any notice. We have only to look at what happened a week or so ago with the Richmond Park order, when a fatal Motion was lost by seven votes. A non-fatal Motion simply regretting the order was passed by a huge majority and within hours the Government announced, in a statement that I have here, that they would carry on in exactly the way that they had intended. Does anyone believe that, having got to this stage—having gone through the debate that we have tonight—all of a sudden the Government are going to say, "Oh no, sorry, we’ll stop. We’ll pause and reconsider". Of course they will not; they will carry on. I want to make my other point as strongly as I can. It is often said that the Conservative Opposition—or the opposition party, which for the time being is the Conservative Party—do not vote on fatal Motions. Since the last general election, there have been 13 fatal Motions. Substantial numbers of Conservative Peers have voted for those fatal Motions on eight occasions. I have the details here and shall read them out because I do not mind how long we take. By substantial, I mean 66 Conservative Peers on one occasion, 62 on another, then 38 and 36 and so on. Those are substantial numbers of Conservative Peers who felt able to vote in support of fatal Motions. If Conservative Peers feel so strongly that these orders are wrong, there is no reason why they should not support my amendment tonight. Of course, that applies even more so to the Cross-Bench Peers. Division on Lord Tope’s amendment. Contents 54; Not-Contents 118. Amendment disagreed.