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Policing Protocol Order 2012

My Lords, when I spoke at Second Reading of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill on 27 April last year, I described the Bill as a crucial step towards a thoroughly modernised police service. I did not say that the Bill would in itself produce that; I described it as a crucial first step. As we all know, the issue of PCCs was an essential element in the Bill. In fact, one could well say that it was the essential ingredient in that Bill, especially in so far as handling police finances and, even more importantly, the operational independence of a chief officer or interference with that. We all remember and understand the difficulties that we had when Clause 1 was voted off the table, as it were, in Committee, and the difficulties that we had in discussing the role of PCCs in that environment. It was a lengthy and very detailed series of debates, and I will not go into them. They are fresh in our memories. But it became very obvious as we went through that series of debates that there was a need for a protocol to flesh out the detail behind what we meant by some of those terms. I personally welcome it and speak in support of it tonight. After the General Committee debate, which took place two days ago in the other place, I ran off 23 pages of that debate on my computer and could not find a single word that passed any comment to say that the consultation process was less than robust. The Committee preoccupied itself very much with trying to tease out a definition of proper or improper political interference, which comes very close to what we are talking about tonight. But I could find no trace of any disquiet there about a lack of proper consultation. Indeed, the consultation has involved all the three existing major players; it cannot obviously go to PCCs as they do not exist yet-they have not been elected. But it involved ACPO, the Association of Police Authorities and the Association of Police Authority Chief Executives. I cannot think of anyone else that it could have gone to, and certainly ACPO is satisfied with the procedure and believed that its views were put forward in adequate fashion. I think-although at second hand, and I am subject to correction at this point-that the other two agencies felt very much the same way. So with the greatest respect, I disagree with our own House of Lords Select Committee on the Merits of Statutory Instruments, which said in paragraph 3 of the report: "Given the constitutional importance of the governance of the police service, the Committee considers that a full consultation might have provided a more complete test of the robustness of the Protocol". With the greatest respect, I disagree. If I had been able to express a view to that committee, I would have said as a one-time senior police officer a number of things. The relationship between police officers and police authorities has always had a potential for discord. It is a matter of a healthy tension between individuals and groups of individuals. Nothing that we do today will change that; it has always been in place. I have experienced some very warm relationships with police authorities and, on occasion, some pretty torrid ones. That was what went with the job, and that is how democracy operates in trying to set out a balance. Mostly, of course, good sense reigned and still does mostly; constructive tensions are a good thing, and usually both sides respect each other. If one looks at the history, one can see that the real tensions to date have been few. We have only ever had one-and I referred to it in an earlier debate in your Lordships' House. It concerned Derbyshire, where the balance got so far out of hand in the hands of the police authority that I personally had to declare that force inefficient because it was being starved of funds. So the risks are there, and they always have been there-and of course they will, let us be honest, continue to be there if we have a balance of power shared between the two. I would have said to the committee that the protocol as drafted, which we are debating tonight, would have been immeasurably useful to me as a chief officer, if I had had that document to hand-and, mutatis mutandis, it would have been just as useful there as it will be in future. I do not think that it can go any further in a description of either political interference or operational independence. That is the view of the practitioners and certainly the view of ACPO. I refer to two sets of remarks in the House of Commons General Committee of 23 January, first of all very briefly to what Mr Mark Reckless, the MP for Rochester and Strood, said. He said: "The protocol is a clear and significant document. I should like to put on record my appreciation of all sides of the tripartite, particularly the police".-[Official Report, Commons General Committee, 23/1/12; col. 8.] More particularly, the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice, Mr Nick Herbert, said in winding up that it was, "important to say that it was always the Government's clearly expressed intention not to try to define operational independence. The police themselves advised strongly, through ACPO and senior police leaders, that we should not attempt to define operational independence in law".-[Official Report, Commons General Committee, 23/1/12; col. 19.] With the greatest respect, I think that that is the correct approach. There is a pressure point, of course. I do not wish to weary the House with it as it is very obvious and it was obvious all the way through Committee and Report. The pressure point is that when the PCC comes into office he or she will almost certainly ride in on a ticket to address a specific problem or specific problems and will do their best to make sure that they are addressed. The wise chief officer should do his or her utmost to assist that. After all, it is a demonstration of the will of the general public, which all too often has been not exactly suppressed but not exactly clear in the past. Here you have a mandate to address a problem or problems, and so far I have no difficulty with that at all. Presumably, the resources will be put at the disposal of the chief officer but, if that wish or desire by the PCC is outlandish, improper, illegal or ill judged, it is up to the chief constable to try to persuade the PCC to defer from that stated course of action and, if all else fails, to resist it. That is what we have in a democracy, but I do not believe that we are necessarily going to run against that all the time. I hope that I will not be oversimplifying what I am about to say, but in my professional experience I found that, when push came to shove, political figures drew back from getting too close to operational decisions. They will be rubbing shoulders with you when things go well, but when things do not they will be in the background saying in effect, "That is the operational decision of the chief officer". I do not want to oversimplify that, and quite clearly that could be the subject of a debate. However, I make the point in general terms-and perhaps I labour it-that there has always been a constructive tension between chief officers and police authorities and their chairmen, and that should and will continue. In a sense, I regret that we have to spend time tonight debating this, although I understand entirely why we are doing it. We could hardly fail to do so, given the remarks of our Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee. All I would say is that we should try to let good sense, and a sense of balance and mutual respect, flourish in this projected environment. We know that the Minister will review it, when we have had a chance to see whether it has bedded down. It probably is a meritorious decision to do that at the 12-month point, and perhaps again at the three-year point, to make quite sure that we are picking up problems before they get too large. However, let us try to treat both PCCs and chief constables as mature individuals who can rely on the protocol for guidance, and who know that it can be properly amended, in the knowledge that, so far as we are concerned, the professionals in play today are satisfied with the protocol as it stands.