Parliamentary Search

Debate on bill on Wednesday, 23 November 2005, in the House of Commons, led by Lord Hain. The answering member was David Lidington.

Northern Ireland (Offences) Bill

Northern Ireland (Offences) Bill. Second reading debate. Amendment negatived to on division (258 to 313). Main question agreed to on division (310 to 262). Programme motion for proceedings in Committee, on Report and Third reading agreed to on question (formal). Money resolution agreed to on question (formal).

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
439 c1528-626, (corrigendum) 1732 
Session
2005-06
Department
Northern Ireland Office
Legislative stage
Second reading
Procedure
Programme motions
Money resolutions
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Hanson of Flint | 439 c1616-8 (Link to this contribution) No, there are only three minutes left. The hon. Gentleman has not been in the Chamber for all of the...
John Baron | 439 c1616 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Show all contributions (297)
Lord Hanson of Flint | 439 c1616 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend will be aware that part of the discussions at Weston Park and part of the reason that...
Mark Durkan | 439 c1616 (Link to this contribution) If the Minister is as concerned as he says he is about victims, why are the Government stabbing new ...
Lord Robathan | 439 c1553 (Link to this contribution) As this shameful Bill is a concession to the IRA, as the Saville inquiry has been a concession to th...
Lord Robathan | 439 c1561 (Link to this contribution) : I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, who knows that I have great respect for him. Was he eve...
Lord Robathan | 439 c1609-10 (Link to this contribution) This is a shameful Bill. It relates to a deal that was obviously done between the Prime Minister and...
Lord Robathan | 439 c1572 (Link to this contribution) : I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not be so foolish as to trust the Government again.
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 439 c1544 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State clarify whether the tribunal system would give the former members of the...
Lord Robathan | 439 c1546 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
David Lidington | 439 c1554-5 (Link to this contribution) As my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith) explained,...
Tobias Ellwood | 439 c1554 (Link to this contribution) How much has the inquiry into Bloody Sunday cost? What will be the consequences to that inquiry if t...
David Lidington | 439 c1554 (Link to this contribution) The trouble with estimating the cost of the Bloody Sunday inquiry is that the figure goes up with ea...
David Lidington | 439 c1555 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I want to turn to—
Ben Wallace | 439 c1555 (Link to this contribution) : Will my hon. Friend give way?
David Lidington | 439 c1555-6 (Link to this contribution) The House will have heard the Secretary of State’s comments. One argument that the Government have ...
Lord Hain | 439 c1555 (Link to this contribution) As the issue has been raised, let me again say that a serving or retired soldier—whatever member of ...
Lady Hermon | 439 c1604 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the Secretary of State. I should be pleased if he would place a copy of h...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 439 c1605-7 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the opportunity to participate in this evening’s debate. I agree entirely that this has be...
Iris Robinson | 439 c1607 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend aware that the Taoiseach is on record as saying that he would rather be in opposit...
Lady Hermon | 439 c1603 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful for that assurance from the Secretary of State. I would like the additional assur...
Lord Hain | 439 c1603 (Link to this contribution) I probably need to write to the hon. Lady to provide the clarity that she needs in response to her q...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 439 c1607-8 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. We have heard Labour Members trumpeting the July statement and the Secretary of State tellin...
David TC Davies | 439 c1608 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that many of my hon. Friends agree with every word that the hon. Gentleman is saying. Does...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 439 c1608 (Link to this contribution) I agree, and I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Some members of the security forces to...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 439 c1608 (Link to this contribution) Will it not also be a raw deal for, and insulting to, the people of Northern Ireland and the victims...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 439 c1614-5 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the tone of today’s debate. This is a difficult subject, with lots of raw emotion. I ho...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 439 c1615 (Link to this contribution) I was with Aileen Quinton when the Minister met her, by accident, in Central Lobby a couple of weeks...
Laurence Robertson | 439 c1611-4 (Link to this contribution) When we think about Northern Ireland, many words come to mind—““courage”” being one in so many insta...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 439 c1608-9 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a telling point. May I say, as a friend and colleague, how much I appreciated h...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 439 c1615 (Link to this contribution) No, because I have limited time to reply. In the Bill, there is a duty on both the certification co...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 439 c1615 (Link to this contribution) I have offered to meet victims. I met victims yesterday and I make an offer today to meet with any v...
Lembit Opik | 439 c1568 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good point. I hope that the Minister in his summation will explain in what ex...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 439 c1565 (Link to this contribution) There may well be, but it is not for me to answer that question. I hope that the Government will co...
Mark Francois | 439 c1564-5 (Link to this contribution) : This point is not at the core of the Bill, but the right hon. Gentleman mentioned the disbandmen...
Greg Mulholland | 439 c1568 (Link to this contribution) I, too, wish to express my condolences to my hon. Friend. I also pay tribute to the courage he has s...
Lembit Opik | 439 c1565-8 (Link to this contribution) I thought long and hard about whether I should contribute today, but on the balance of consideration...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 439 c1564 (Link to this contribution) It is not for me to speak on behalf of the Irish Government. It is for them to tell the Government a...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 439 c1564 (Link to this contribution) : If this agreement was reached between the United Kingdom Government, the Government of the Irish R...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 439 c1564 (Link to this contribution) To be honest, I do not think that that was said. I do not think for one second that we will return t...
Tobias Ellwood | 439 c1564 (Link to this contribution) : The right hon. Gentleman talks about long-term prosperity. Is he not concerned about one of the re...
Julian Lewis | 439 c1563 (Link to this contribution) : I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his generosity in giving way. Does he accept that the reason ...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 439 c1563 (Link to this contribution) That will be a matter for considerable debate during the passage of the Bill. The hon. Gentleman kno...
Alistair Carmichael | 439 c1563 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that the other group whose interests must not be forgotten and ...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 439 c1563 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that. I am also grateful for not being in his position tod...
Lord Hain | 439 c1563 (Link to this contribution) I pay tribute to the work that my right hon. Friend did in getting us to the point where the IRA gav...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 439 c1562 (Link to this contribution) If my memory serves me right, the publication in 2003 would have included that provision. The point...
Lady Hermon | 439 c1562 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm whether the Government gave an undertaking to Sinn Fein that r...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 439 c1562 (Link to this contribution) I would have a great deal of sympathy with such an amendment, but I would take the same view as the ...
Lord Cormack | 439 c1562 (Link to this contribution) : Can I take it from what the right hon. Gentleman has just said that he would support an amendment ...
Alasdair McDonnell | 439 c1578 (Link to this contribution) Was this on-the-runs stuff not in the comprehensive agreement of a year ago? [Hon. Members: ““No.””]...
Lord Bannside | 439 c1578 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman want me to give way? He should ask for it—he might get it. I do not believe ...
Speaker | 439 c1578 (Link to this contribution) Order. It is for the Rev. Ian Paisley to respond to the intervention.
Mark Durkan | 439 c1578 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. Gentleman—I shall give you your proper title. What you say confirms that you ...
Lord Bannside | 439 c1578 (Link to this contribution) I say to the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Dr. McDonnell) that I wrote to the Prime Minister to te...
Lord Bannside | 439 c1578 (Link to this contribution) I shall leave the Ulster Unionists to answer for themselves. The people of Northern Ireland know wha...
Speaker | 439 c1578 (Link to this contribution) Order. May I remind hon. Members of the need for the correct use of parliamentary language?
Lord Bannside | 439 c1578 (Link to this contribution) The Government can wheedle and say this, that or the other thing, but the straight line is this: the...
Lord Gove | 439 c1573 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making a profound criticism of this Government’s handling of the peace process...
Mark Durkan | 439 c1572-3 (Link to this contribution) The Government know that I have never been quite so foolish as always to trust them. I have not alwa...
Mark Durkan | 439 c1571-2 (Link to this contribution) Like other hon. Members, I want to offer my sincere condolences to the hon. Member for Montgomeryshi...
Mark Durkan | 439 c1573-6 (Link to this contribution) Yes, and this is not the first time that the matter has gone on the record. Seamus Mallon has referr...
Andrew Turner | 439 c1573 (Link to this contribution) In an earlier intervention, I asked whether the Prime Minister had made that appalling statement abo...
Mark Durkan | 439 c1573 (Link to this contribution) In many respects, what is devastating to the SDLP is neither here nor there. I do not want to go dow...
Lembit Opik | 439 c1568-71 (Link to this contribution) What is so important? Is it the water charges or some minor felony? To justify the creation of a par...
Peter Robinson | 439 c1590-1 (Link to this contribution) Under previous legislation, those people had been through the courts, been found guilty and convicte...
Meg Hillier | 439 c1587 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to address that point. We must deal with the remaining issues in Northern Ireland, wheth...
Ben Wallace | 439 c1587 (Link to this contribution) : Does the hon. Lady agree that there are two key differences between the South African truth and re...
Meg Hillier | 439 c1587-8 (Link to this contribution) I was just coming to that. I was trying to judge whether the Bill measures up to two important bench...
Peter Robinson | 439 c1588-90 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to follow the hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), although I hav...
Michael Mates | 439 c1583-5 (Link to this contribution) It is always a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey), who speaks with so...
Baroness Hoey | 439 c1581-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has quoted the Prime Minister’s statement and I can only say that, in my view, we...
Julian Brazier | 439 c1586-7 (Link to this contribution) How can this Bill take us towards that objective, when all the democratic parties in Northern Irelan...
Meg Hillier | 439 c1586 (Link to this contribution) When we last debated security in Northern Ireland, the right hon. Member for North Antrim (Rev. Ian ...
Mark Durkan | 439 c1581 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady says that she is not sure what the Prime Minister has said in recent days. Yesterday, ...
Gregory Campbell | 439 c1581 (Link to this contribution) It appears that part of the reason why we are being asked to move the process on by voting for the B...
Baroness Hoey | 439 c1581 (Link to this contribution) I do not know what the Prime Minister has said about some of these things. I feel strongly that the ...
David Winnick | 439 c1580 (Link to this contribution) I note what my hon. Friend says, but is not it a fact that the Labour Opposition strenuously opposed...
Baroness Hoey | 439 c1580-1 (Link to this contribution) I respect my hon. Friend and he is right on that, but it does not get around the expectation that pe...
Lord Bannside | 439 c1579 (Link to this contribution) Exactly. I always knew that the hon. Gentleman was very ecumenical. The people of Northern Ireland ...
Baroness Hoey | 439 c1579-80 (Link to this contribution) May I first add my condolences to the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) and say how brav...
Lord Bannside | 439 c1579 (Link to this contribution) All I can say is that I was in the House when the former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland rea...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 439 c1579 (Link to this contribution) On 31 October 2005, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland said in the House:"““I can confirm t...
Gordon Banks | 439 c1595 (Link to this contribution) I want to finish this point. At this stage, it is difficult to predetermine an end-date, as we are n...
Iris Robinson | 439 c1595 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Gordon Banks | 439 c1595 (Link to this contribution) No, as I want to finish this point. That the Secretary of State has a power to end the programme is ...
Ben Wallace | 439 c1595 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman may not be aware that, since July this year, in west Belfast there have been 21 a...
Lord Benyon | 439 c1594 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Gordon Banks | 439 c1594 (Link to this contribution) In the future, we must ensure that crimes such as have been described today do not occur. I do not w...
Gordon Banks | 439 c1594 (Link to this contribution) No, not at the moment. Secondly, the Bill offers an opportunity to move to a safer and more toleran...
Ben Wallace | 439 c1595 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Gordon Banks | 439 c1594-5 (Link to this contribution) If my right hon. Friend had written the speech for me, I am sure that it would be much better than m...
Mark Durkan | 439 c1594 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend says that the Bill is necessary for progress, but what progress necessitates the Bill...
Gordon Banks | 439 c1594 (Link to this contribution) I have not been party to those discussions, but my answer is very similar to the one that I gave to ...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 439 c1593-4 (Link to this contribution) One of my first memories of the troubles was of an horrific incident in which three young Scottish s...
Gordon Banks | 439 c1594 (Link to this contribution) What I will say is that it is right for Northern Ireland to move on and take advantage of all the be...
Speaker | 439 c1594 (Link to this contribution) Order. We must have one debate, conducted in the correct manner.
Iris Robinson | 439 c1591 (Link to this contribution) : As my hon. Friend knows, I have been dealing with the victims of the La Mon atrocity for some year...
Gordon Banks | 439 c1592-3 (Link to this contribution) I would like to set out the background to the Bill as I see it. Since 1997, we have come a long way....
Peter Robinson | 439 c1592 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I cannot. I have very little time left, and I would be allowed no extra time for th...
Julian Brazier | 439 c1592 (Link to this contribution) : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Peter Robinson | 439 c1591-2 (Link to this contribution) : Under the Government’s proposals, victims will have very few rights. In certain circumstances, the...
Alasdair McDonnell | 439 c1600-1 (Link to this contribution) I am worried about the Bill because it is extremely far reaching. On the surface, as we have heard, ...
Lord Cormack | 439 c1598 (Link to this contribution) Sadly, that is very likely. If we are to draw a line, if we are to move forward, as we would all li...
Speaker | 439 c1598-9 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman. Sedentary comments of that kind, coming from cert...
Lord Cormack | 439 c1597-8 (Link to this contribution) Oh, they take the money and they like the facilities, but they are not prepared to act as Members of...
Lord Cormack | 439 c1597 (Link to this contribution) I have real affection for the hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Gordon Banks) who sits on ...
Lord Hain | 439 c1603 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is characteristically persuasive. I can give that categorical assurance. Any police in...
Lady Hermon | 439 c1601-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on the Second Reading of this Bill, which I regard as so ...
Gordon Banks | 439 c1596 (Link to this contribution) The difficulty is whether the Bill is in effect an amnesty, but it sets out a proper judicial proces...
Philip Hollobone | 439 c1596 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman mentioned the 2,000 unsolved murders in Northern Ireland. What has he to say abou...
Gordon Banks | 439 c1596 (Link to this contribution) I understand that point, but if the Bill is enacted, the new process will be what we have, and that ...
Gordon Banks | 439 c1595 (Link to this contribution) I agree wholeheartedly with the hon. Gentleman. The application of the Bill to members of the secur...
Iris Robinson | 439 c1595 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. So that we may assess his credibility, can he tell us whe...
Gordon Banks | 439 c1596 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I have been to Northern Ireland. My viewpoint as a Member of Parliament is no less valid—and no...
Lord Hain | 439 c1539 (Link to this contribution) The Good Friday agreement—[Interruption.] No, the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Dodds), for wh...
Iain Duncan Smith | 439 c1540 (Link to this contribution) : Will the Secretary of State give way?
Lord Hain | 439 c1540 (Link to this contribution) No, not for the moment, as I am trying to answer the question posed by my hon. Friend the Member for...
Lord Hain | 439 c1540 (Link to this contribution) Why? It is because we made an agreement to do so. [Hon. Members: ““Oh!””] Indeed, and the agreement ...
Baroness Hoey | 439 c1540 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State continues to say that the Bill is about the IRA, not the victims. Supposedly,...
Lord Hain | 439 c1540 (Link to this contribution) No, I am not saying that. In fact, I expressly did not do so.
Alistair Carmichael | 439 c1540 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State cannot be allowed to get off with the pretence that Weston Park somehow concl...
Lord Hain | 439 c1540 (Link to this contribution) For the historical record, the hon. Gentleman must know that one of the reasons the Democratic Union...
Lord Hain | 439 c1540 (Link to this contribution) It is not blackmail. To get to the end of a conflict as ancient and bitter as the one in Northern Ir...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 439 c1540 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Ben Wallace | 439 c1542 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Lord Hain | 439 c1542 (Link to this contribution) I need to make some progress, and then will give way again. The Government believe that, if Norther...
Lord Hain | 439 c1542 (Link to this contribution) I will, in time. The choice in many cases is between failing to bring the people involved to justic...
Lord Hain | 439 c1540-1 (Link to this contribution) No, I have given way to the hon. Gentleman before and will do so again, but I think that I have the ...
Lord Hain | 439 c1541 (Link to this contribution) I started taking interventions some half an hour or more ago, at which time I was explaining that Mo...
Lord Hain | 439 c1537 (Link to this contribution) If individuals who appear before the special court are convicted—the hon. Gentleman will understand ...
Lord Hain | 439 c1537 (Link to this contribution) I understand my hon. Friend’s point, which was also expressed powerfully by the hon. Member for Sout...
Sammy Wilson | 439 c1537 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State sprinkled the term ““justice”” throughout his speech. He is not prepared to m...
Lady Hermon | 439 c1536 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State has referred seven times to two agreements—an agreement between the Irish and...
Lord Hain | 439 c1536 (Link to this contribution) That case was unique in that about six weeks after I had had Sean Kelly arrested—I was widely attack...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 439 c1537 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend has already described the Bill as unpalatable, which I think is parliamentary l...
Lord Hain | 439 c1536-7 (Link to this contribution) In all fairness, the hon. Gentleman did make that point to me when I gave evidence to his Committee ...
Lord Cormack | 439 c1536 (Link to this contribution) : As the Secretary of State has neither logic nor justice on his side, and as he is clearly deeply u...
Lord Hain | 439 c1536 (Link to this contribution) A whole process of negotiation led to this position, but the hon. Lady is right to say that the Bill...
Lord Hain | 439 c1539 (Link to this contribution) If they come back, they will initially apply to the commissioner. If they return to Northern Ireland...
Mark Francois | 439 c1539 (Link to this contribution) May I offer my personal condolences to the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik), with whom ...
Lord Hain | 439 c1538 (Link to this contribution) Some in absentia trials do occur, but I recognise the hon. Lady’s point. Defendants might well choos...
Baroness Burt of Solihull | 439 c1537-8 (Link to this contribution) Was the commitment for defendants not to have to appear in court given in writing to the IRA? If vic...
William Cash | 439 c1538 (Link to this contribution) A number of British soldiers have faced difficulties in regard to acts that they may have committed ...
Lord Hain | 439 c1538 (Link to this contribution) I face an abundance of hon. Members wanting to intervene. I give way to the hon. Member for Stone (M...
Lord Hain | 439 c1538 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful that the hon. Gentleman raised the matter with me earlier. In framing the final detail...
Julian Brazier | 439 c1538-9 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State repeatedly used the word ““closure””, and subsequently made it clear that it ...
Lord Hain | 439 c1538 (Link to this contribution) I would like to finish the point and give the hon. Member for Stone the courtesy of replying to his ...
Lord Hain | 439 c1533-4 (Link to this contribution) No. However, rightly or wrongly—the hon. Gentleman takes the view that it is wrong, and I respect th...
Lord Hain | 439 c1533 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s point about loyalist paramilitaries. Whether they are on the run o...
Julian Lewis | 439 c1533 (Link to this contribution) Has the Secretary of State received any indication from the IRA or its political representatives tha...
Lord Hain | 439 c1533 (Link to this contribution) The point is that the Bill is part of the process announced in 2003, and part of the process that ha...
Mark Durkan | 439 c1533 (Link to this contribution) In his opening remarks, the Secretary of State said that the Government had not moved earlier on thi...
Speaker | 439 c1533 (Link to this contribution) Order. I understand how strongly hon. Members feel about this matter, but the Minister must be allow...
Lord Hain | 439 c1532-3 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman made his point very powerfully, and I understand it. I would just make this...
Iain Duncan Smith | 439 c1532 (Link to this contribution) Does the Secretary of State not recognise why people feel so strongly about this? My predecessor in ...
Lord Hain | 439 c1532 (Link to this contribution) I find that suggestion reprehensible. The problem that my right hon. Friend and others are refusing ...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 439 c1532 (Link to this contribution) When the Secretary of State says that the Government are seeking closure, does he realise that the H...
Andrew MacKay | 439 c1535 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State reflect on the wise words of the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), wh...
Lord Hain | 439 c1535 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is correct to the extent that the Bill did not flow from the Belfast agreem...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 439 c1535-6 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State spoke of people being released on licence. That will give little comfort to t...
Lord Hain | 439 c1536 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman mentioned Sean Kelly. That was a unique situation.
Lord Hain | 439 c1534 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has made a powerful point very movingly, in a way that only he could, given the e...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 439 c1534 (Link to this contribution) I stood in a mortuary and looked into the face—or part of the face—of a young girl, my cousin aged 2...
Lord Hain | 439 c1535 (Link to this contribution) That view was indeed expressed to my hon. Friend the Under Secretary, but not, on that occasion, to ...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 439 c1534-5 (Link to this contribution) This morning on Radio 4, the Secretary of State referred to what he described as political prisoners...
Lord Hain | 439 c1534 (Link to this contribution) No, of course not. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, but the Irish Government are responsible...
Peter Robinson | 439 c1534 (Link to this contribution) Why is the Secretary of State attempting to hang his argument on the fact that the Bill affects on-t...
Speaker | 439 c1528 (Link to this contribution) I inform the House that I have selected the amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition an...
Lord Hain | 439 c1528-9 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. I am sure that the whole House will join me...
Lord Hain | 439 c1529-30 (Link to this contribution) I understand the powerful arguments that have been made about the matter. We are trying to strike a ...
Lord Cormack | 439 c1529 (Link to this contribution) Is not the very least that those bruised and wounded people can expect the appearance in a court in ...
Lord Hain | 439 c1530 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend asks why. The decision was made to get closure not least for the victims—[Inter...
Speaker | 439 c1530 (Link to this contribution) Order. We must let the Secretary of State speak.
Iris Robinson | 439 c1530 (Link to this contribution) Does the Secretary of State accept that the figures for deaths and for victims who lived but are sca...
Lord Hain | 439 c1530 (Link to this contribution) That will happen if people are convicted—[Interruption.] There may not be sufficient evidence to con...
Speaker | 439 c1530-1 (Link to this contribution) Order. We are conducting a debate and the Secretary of State has a right to put the case before the ...
Lord Hain | 439 c1530 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, I do. I fully agree with the hon. Lady. She knows better than me many of the victims and man...
Iris Robinson | 439 c1530 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Secretary of State for giving way a second time. Does he realise that the Bill will brin...
Lord Bannside | 439 c1531 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman says that he will meet some of the victims from the police this afternoon. ...
Lord Hain | 439 c1531 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right—[Hon. Members: ““Withdraw it.””] He is right that the Bill is unquestion...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 439 c1531 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State talks about bringing closure. Why does he insult the victims? It is bad enoug...
Lord Hain | 439 c1531 (Link to this contribution) Although I fully appreciate your point, Mr. Speaker, I also recognise the strong feelings—indeed, ...
Lord Hain | 439 c1532 (Link to this contribution) Before I take more interventions, which I will be happy to do, I want to inform the House that the M...
Lord Hain | 439 c1531-2 (Link to this contribution) Again, the right hon. Gentleman knows more individuals than me who have suffered so grievously. It i...
David Lidington | 439 c1554 (Link to this contribution) That is what I hope Parliament will do.
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 439 c1561 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I was. I was coming to that in a moment. Part of the difference between what happened in 1998, ...
David Lidington | 439 c1554 (Link to this contribution) I think that that is the most recent figure. We have to ask serious questions about the value of the...
Andrew MacKay | 439 c1604-5 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) in a compelling objection to...
Lord Bannside | 439 c1576-8 (Link to this contribution) The Bill flies in the face of justice. It is about excuses for crimes, some heinous. The Bill is fu...
Philip Hollobone | 439 c1590 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right to focus on the asymmetry between the Bill’s provisions and those that a...
Speaker | 439 c1560 (Link to this contribution) May I remind the House that Mr. Speaker has placed a 15-minute limit on Back Benchers’ speeches?
Lord Robathan | 439 c1610-1 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, I have not got time. The former Chief of the Defence Staff, Admiral Boyce, has said:"““...
Mark Durkan | 439 c1610 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 439 c1563-4 (Link to this contribution) I can certainly say that so far as the so-called cold cases were concerned, with the police, for exa...
Lord Cormack | 439 c1599 (Link to this contribution) I do not get injury time for your intervention, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but so be it. I was about to ma...
Gordon Banks | 439 c1596-7 (Link to this contribution) I do not intend to give way. The last Conservative Government and, since 1997, the Labour Government...
Lord Hain | 439 c1545 (Link to this contribution) I thought that I had explained the position very clearly, but I am happy to clarify it again for the...
Andrew Turner | 439 c1549 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State will appreciate that he is proposing a new but parallel system, which he may ...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 439 c1615-6 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way at this stage, because I wish to make some important points in limited time. My ...
Andrew Turner | 439 c1547 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Lord Hain | 439 c1547 (Link to this contribution) No, I am sorry. Clauses 2 to 6 provide for an eligibility process, conducted by a certification com...
Lord Hain | 439 c1547 (Link to this contribution) I acknowledge the role that the right hon. Gentleman played and the House will of course want to pay...
Lord Hain | 439 c1547 (Link to this contribution) I need to make some more progress. There are strong feelings about the Bill and I have been happy to...
Lord Hain | 439 c1546 (Link to this contribution) I have been on my feet for an hour and 10 minutes—[Hon. Members: ““Give way.””] I give way to the ri...
Iain Duncan Smith | 439 c1546-7 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State has accused me of something that is reprehensible. As someone who actually se...
Iain Duncan Smith | 439 c1546 (Link to this contribution) What I am saying to the Secretary of State is clear: the legislation is wrong for everybody. He shou...
Lord Hain | 439 c1546 (Link to this contribution) I understand and respect the fact that the right hon. Gentleman is opposed to the legislation and th...
Lord Hain | 439 c1546 (Link to this contribution) I want to respond to the first point made by the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green ...
Alistair Carmichael | 439 c1560 (Link to this contribution) : Is not the situation even blacker than the hon. Gentleman paints it? If, having undergone that pro...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 439 c1561 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak in this important debate. Only tw...
David Lidington | 439 c1560 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman, who is an experienced lawyer, makes a good point that we look forward to pursuin...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 439 c1561 (Link to this contribution) The other parties did not agree with the Bill.
Peter Robinson | 439 c1561 (Link to this contribution) One of the points that have been made is that that deal was done exclusively with Sinn Fein-IRA, bot...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 439 c1561-2 (Link to this contribution) I cannot recall every detail of the discussions, other than that when the final joint declaration em...
John Hayes | 439 c1558 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend will remember that when the Secretary of State was challenged on that matter by our h...
David Lidington | 439 c1558 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. I thought that that particular argument advanced by the Secre...
Lord Hain | 439 c1558-9 (Link to this contribution) I wish to remind the hon. Gentleman and the House of what I said. The procedures of the special trib...
David Lidington | 439 c1559 (Link to this contribution) I have to tell the Secretary of State that that is not my reading of the Bill, nor that of senior la...
Andrew Turner | 439 c1559 (Link to this contribution) If what the Secretary of State says is true, and I have no reason to believe that it is not, why doe...
David Lidington | 439 c1559 (Link to this contribution) I can only speculate. Given that I do not believe that the logistical argument about court business ...
Lady Hermon | 439 c1559 (Link to this contribution) Even if the Bill completed its passage through the House and another place, is it not the case that ...
David Lidington | 439 c1559 (Link to this contribution) It is highly likely that if the Bill is enacted—I hope that it will not be—there will be challenges ...
David Lidington | 439 c1559-60 (Link to this contribution) The Government’s arguments on counter-terrorist policy appear less persuasive when they are seen to ...
Julian Brazier | 439 c1559 (Link to this contribution) : May I pursue that point and ask my hon. Friend to address the grave matter raised by the right hon...
David Lidington | 439 c1556-7 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that the truth is that a deal was made—I suspect between the Prime Minister and the lead...
Lord Cormack | 439 c1557 (Link to this contribution) Is it not also true that there has been no expression of contrition or remorse at any stage?
David Lidington | 439 c1556 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is broadly right, although the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) made a...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 439 c1556 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows that many hon. Members have made passionate and heartfelt appeals, especial...
David Lidington | 439 c1556 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is correct. When the Secretary of State says that without the deal at Weston Pa...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 439 c1556 (Link to this contribution) Was the hon. Gentleman struck, as I was, by the fact that during the entire length of the Secretary ...
Iain Duncan Smith | 439 c1556 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making great progress, but will he take up this one point with the Secretary of St...
David Lidington | 439 c1558 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a compelling point. The process in the Bill is not one known to any court in th...
Lord Harper | 439 c1558 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State mentioned the importance of finding out what happened and making sure that pe...
David Lidington | 439 c1557-8 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. I believe that if there is to be reconciliation and closure, we should expe...
Julian Lewis | 439 c1554 (Link to this contribution) : Let us return to the options facing a soldier who took part in an operation such as Loughall, whic...
Lord Hain | 439 c1544 (Link to this contribution) Indeed it will. They could plead not guilty. As a result of the Saville inquiry, if any soldiers are...
Mark Durkan | 439 c1545 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Secretary of State for giving way, because the specific example of Bloody Sunday that he...
Lord Hain | 439 c1544 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but the hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Donaldson) has raised an important point and I...
Julian Lewis | 439 c1545 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, the Secretary of State is saying that if a former serving soldier were charged a...
Lord Hain | 439 c1545 (Link to this contribution) I know the sensitivity in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and the city of Derry about this matter—...
Iain Duncan Smith | 439 c1545-6 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the Secretary of State on giving way so much. I know that the whole House appreciates...
Lord Hain | 439 c1546 (Link to this contribution) It is not a question of evading issues at the time of the Good Friday agreement. This is an unresolv...
Lord Hain | 439 c1544 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but that is factually incorrect. First, if the individuals responsible for Warrenpoint a...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 439 c1542-3 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State will have noted the deep anger caused by putting members of the security forc...
Lord Hain | 439 c1542 (Link to this contribution) I shall finish this point, and then take an intervention from the hon. Member for Belfast, North. Th...
Ben Wallace | 439 c1542 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 439 c1542 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Iris Robinson | 439 c1543 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Secretary of State for giving way to me a third time. Does he understand that the people...
Lord Hain | 439 c1543 (Link to this contribution) No, as I am answering the hon. Member for Belfast, North. The problem of time limits was considered ...
David TC Davies | 439 c1543 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Lord Hain | 439 c1543 (Link to this contribution) It is a matter of choice, and we can explore the question of time limits in greater detail as the Bi...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 439 c1543-4 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State referred to the ongoing historic inquiries, and I presume that he includes th...
Lord Hain | 439 c1543 (Link to this contribution) I acknowledged that the hon. Lady’s party, for reasons stated at the time and repeated since, oppose...
David Lidington | 439 c1553-4 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend speaks with his experience of service in the Army. It is obviously for the Government...
Alistair Carmichael | 439 c1554 (Link to this contribution) : Is not the answer to the logical knots in which the Secretary of State ties himself that, instead ...
Iain Duncan Smith | 439 c1554 (Link to this contribution) : May I compliment my hon. Friend on making a cogent argument? I put it to him, and through him to t...
Lord Hain | 439 c1553 (Link to this contribution) I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman makes and sympathise with it in many respects. Howeve...
Lord Hain | 439 c1553 (Link to this contribution) I understand both that point and the hon. Gentleman’s point of principle in objecting to the Bill. H...
David Lidington | 439 c1553 (Link to this contribution) I put to the Secretary of State what members of the Police Federation for Northern Ireland said to m...
David Lidington | 439 c1553 (Link to this contribution) As the Secretary of State said himself, we will deal with amendments in Committee and on Report. I a...
Lord Hain | 439 c1550-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that issue and seeking clarification. He brought Bil...
David Lidington | 439 c1551-2 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, To leave out from ““That”” to end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:"““this...
Lord Hain | 439 c1549-50 (Link to this contribution) If people are eligible for legal aid, of course, they will get legal aid, but they must be eligible ...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 439 c1550 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State has today placed in the Library a written statement confirming that he has ch...
Lord Hain | 439 c1552 (Link to this contribution) May I take the hon. Gentleman up on that point? I welcome the basis on which he is making his speech...
David Lidington | 439 c1552-3 (Link to this contribution) As I hope to explain later in my speech, one of the problems that I have with the Bill is the fact t...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 439 c1549 (Link to this contribution) Can the Secretary of State confirm that, under the special procedure, the defendant does not have to...
Lord Hain | 439 c1549 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry; I need to make some progress. Those who may be suspected in the future may well abscond...
Lord Hain | 439 c1548-9 (Link to this contribution) The name of the Home Secretary appears on the Bill as one of its sponsors, along with my name. Clau...
Lord Hain | 439 c1549 (Link to this contribution) I can explain very simply why. I do not want this process to jam up the existing courts. [Interrupti...
Lord Hain | 439 c1548 (Link to this contribution) No, I need to make progress. A person given a life sentence will not be granted a licence if he is ...
Peter Robinson | 439 c1548 (Link to this contribution) The United Kingdom has obligations under several human rights conventions. Under the United Nations ...
Lord Hain | 439 c1548 (Link to this contribution) The issue has been raised with us and we are looking into it, but as I said, the Bill is in full com...
Lady Hermon | 439 c1548 (Link to this contribution) I assume that the Secretary of State occasionally speaks and listens to the Home Secretary—at least ...
Lord Cormack | 439 c1547-8 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State is being generous in giving way, but he has heard the unanimity of view on bo...
Lord Hain | 439 c1548 (Link to this contribution) I acknowledge the strength of feeling in the House. That is why I have accepted interventions. I can...
David TC Davies | 439 c1542 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Lord Hain | 439 c1530 (Link to this contribution) The point that the hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack) rightly made is the fir...
Notes
Daily part printing error - Amendment to division list at 439 c1618: under "Ayes" insert "Hague, rh Mr. William"; under "Noes", delete "Hague, rh Mr. William" and insert "Hall, Mr. Patrick".
Subjects
Admissibility of evidence Criminal proceedings Appeals Crime Armed forces Crimes of violence Arrests Belfast Agreement Certification Licensing Legal aid scheme Eligibility Jurisdiction IRA Exemptions Offenders Northern Ireland Police Prisoners Proscribed organisations Northern Ireland government Proof of identity Prisoners' release Victims Terrorism Time limits Special Tribunal for Northern Ireland Special Appeal Tribunal for Northern Ireland Special Prosecutor for Northern Ireland
Legislation
Northern Ireland (Offences) Bill 2005-06
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk