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Debate on bill on Monday, 12 June 2006, in the House of Commons, led by Mike O'Brien. The answering member was Dominic Grieve.

Fraud Bill [HL]

Fraud Bill (HL). Second reading debate. Agreed to on question. Programme motion for proceedings in Committee, on Report and Third reading agreed to on question (formal)

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
447 c534-83 
Session
2005-06
Department
Solicitor General
Legislative stage
Second reading
Procedure
Programme motions
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Coaker | 447 c582-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for his good wishes. There is always a race between the police and the cr...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 447 c582 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the Minister on his promotion. Clearly criminals are increasingly using more sophisti...
Show all contributions (94)
Chris Bryant | 447 c581 (Link to this contribution) I referred to the issue of the suborning of a police officer. Everyone in the Chamber seemed to be n...
Lord Coaker | 447 c581 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General informs me that he is happy to do that in due course.
David Heath | 447 c581 (Link to this contribution) As the Minister happens to be mentioning advice that will be given, I wonder whether the Solicitor-G...
Lord Coaker | 447 c579-81 (Link to this contribution) This is the first occasion on which I have spoken as a Minister in a Second Reading debate. As I am ...
Lord Garnier | 447 c575-6;447 c576-7 (Link to this contribution) Well, that is J rather than L. They are different letters of the alphabet, and we are making progres...
Charles Walker | 447 c573 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a valid point, and to the Solicitor-General’s credit, he did not talk about ID ...
Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 447 c573 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend referred to Frank Abagnale, one of the world’s leading experts on fraud. On counterfe...
Elfyn Llwyd | 447 c575 (Link to this contribution) For the record, it was a Justice briefing.
Lord Garnier | 447 c573-5;447 c573-6 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that someone such as my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr. Walker) has found ...
Charles Walker | 447 c571-2 (Link to this contribution) I must confess that the hon. Gentleman has foxed me with that intervention. Being a man of limited i...
Charles Walker | 447 c572-3;447 c573 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I hope that my point is not as poor as he thinks and that the...
Chris Bryant | 447 c572;447 c572-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a poor point, but a better point is that many people deliberately buy Sky b...
Lord Garnier | 447 c577-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says, ““Certainly not””, from a sedentary position, in case anyone did not hear h...
Dominic Grieve | 447 c551 (Link to this contribution) Our commitment is to tackle crime at every level and as was clear at the last election, to do so, we...
David Leslie Taylor | 447 c551 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman unimpressed, as I am, by the Solicitor-General’s specific contribution in sayi...
Dominic Grieve | 447 c551 (Link to this contribution) I am not wholly convinced by the Solicitor-General’s arguments on the last point, especially, of cou...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c551 (Link to this contribution) The City of London police are expert at dealing with fraud, but we have given them more than £1 mill...
Dominic Grieve | 447 c550-1 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General makes a perfectly reasonable point that it all comes down to money and there i...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c551 (Link to this contribution) Certainly, the fraud review led by the Attorney-General will examine some of those issues, particula...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c557 (Link to this contribution) The City of London police are responsible not only for fraud in the City, but more widely for London...
Dominic Grieve | 447 c552 (Link to this contribution) At the risk of straying mildly but not too far away from this issue, if the City of London was allow...
Brian Jenkins | 447 c552-6 (Link to this contribution) I speak in support of the Bill today. It looks to be a good Bill—one that has had a very long gestat...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c545-6;447 c545 (Link to this contribution) If we can repeal the offence, our preference would be to do so, but we want to ensure that we deal w...
Dominic Grieve | 447 c546-8 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the Solicitor-General on having secured that rarest of things for a Law Officer—an ou...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c548 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman referred to the Rose Committee. Let me refer him to the letter from Sir Christoph...
Dominic Grieve | 447 c548 (Link to this contribution) I, too, have listened to the consultation. If I had not been listening, I—and, I daresay, my noble F...
Emily Thornberry | 447 c545 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that when people are charged with criminal offences, it is imp...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c550 (Link to this contribution) Are you going to spend more money?
David Heath | 447 c548-9 (Link to this contribution) It concerns me that arguments for the retention of the common law offence in prosecuting multiple of...
Dominic Grieve | 447 c549-50 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. Indeed, one problem, given the plethora of legislation that t...
Nick Hurd | 447 c550 (Link to this contribution) Before my hon. Friend finishes, what comfort did he take from the Solicitor-General’s assurances abo...
Dominic Grieve | 447 c550 (Link to this contribution) I took little comfort from the Solicitor-General’s words on that subject.
Brian Jenkins | 447 c567 (Link to this contribution) Although I should like to agree that it would be appropriate to incorporate a sunset clause, what gu...
Elfyn Llwyd | 447 c567;447 c567-8 (Link to this contribution) I think that I agree with the hon. Gentleman. A period of three years has been mentioned and that is...
Brian Jenkins | 447 c567 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Elfyn Llwyd | 447 c567 (Link to this contribution) Of course I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman from the Clapham omnibus.
Chris Bryant | 447 c569 (Link to this contribution) Has the hon. Gentleman got A and B the wrong way round?
Elfyn Llwyd | 447 c569 (Link to this contribution) No, I have not, or, if I have, so has Justice. Clause 6 deals with the possession of articles. The ...
Lord Garnier | 447 c568 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps a better analogy than the offence of ““going equipped”” is instruments that can be used for ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 447 c568-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman gives a better example, albeit along the same lines as mine. I shall ...
Charles Walker | 447 c569-71;447 c570-1 (Link to this contribution) Thank you for calling me to speak last, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am the tail-end Charlie in this import...
Charles Walker | 447 c571 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Nothing upsets the police more than the fact that, when they act...
David Heath | 447 c557-8 (Link to this contribution) I concur, and, as one of the rare breed of council tax payers in the City of London, I am glad that ...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c558 (Link to this contribution) I have looked through my notes for the exact quote from the Law Commission about clause 4, which I s...
David Heath | 447 c558-9 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the Solicitor-General says, but I still do not entirely understand the point. I do not w...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c559 (Link to this contribution) As I indicated earlier, it is not a strict liability offence. It is the responsibility of the prosec...
David Heath | 447 c559-62 (Link to this contribution) That is extremely helpful. It is clearly not on the face of the Bill. I do not think that we can ass...
Jeremy Wright | 447 c562-3 (Link to this contribution) May I begin by declaring an interest as a non-practising barrister? Like every speaker in our debate...
Chris Bryant | 447 c563-6 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for having missed the speech by the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath), alth...
Elfyn Llwyd | 447 c566;447 c566-7 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to follow the last point, which was interesting, to say the least—a rabbit out of a hat....
Jeremy Hunt | 447 c566-7;447 c567 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the fundamental difference between the course of action that the ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 447 c567 (Link to this contribution) That is self-evident. Surely this place can find time for the presentation of a short Bill, if the p...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c542 (Link to this contribution) May I make it clear that clause 6 does not go too wide, in my view? It does not introduce a strict l...
Jeremy Wright | 447 c542 (Link to this contribution) May I bring the Solicitor-General back to the point made by the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Con...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c542-4 (Link to this contribution) Again, the hon. Gentleman seems to suggest that this is a strict liability offence, but it is not. I...
Elfyn Llwyd | 447 c542 (Link to this contribution) There is a distinction. Under the present law of going equipped, if a person were out at night with ...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c544-5 (Link to this contribution) The conspiracy to defraud has proved useful to prosecutors in several ways. For example, it can be u...
Nick Hurd | 447 c544 (Link to this contribution) The Bill intends to make fraud law easier to understand. In that spirit, can the Solicitor-General d...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c541 (Link to this contribution) Let me give a reassurance to conjurors throughout the land that, provided that they are not intendin...
Dominic Grieve | 447 c541 (Link to this contribution) I suggest that the problem may go further, particularly with regard to clause 7. If one were a membe...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c542 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will let me complete my thought, perhaps I will. It is the intention that we s...
Jeremy Wright | 447 c542 (Link to this contribution) Will the Solicitor-General give way?
Lord Garnier | 447 c540 (Link to this contribution) How will clause 11 create a better set of circumstances than the offence of obtaining pecuniary adva...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c540 (Link to this contribution) It may. Such corporations could use other provisions, but often the real problem in the area that th...
David Heath | 447 c540 (Link to this contribution) I do not want the Solicitor-General to expand his examples too widely, but would the provision also ...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c539-40 (Link to this contribution) We are responding to the broader consultation that took place and the work done by the Law Commissio...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c541 (Link to this contribution) As it needs to be shown that there was an intention that an article would be used for any involvemen...
Elfyn Llwyd | 447 c541 (Link to this contribution) Some commentators have referred to the fact that there is an absence of any mens rea element in this...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c540-1 (Link to this contribution) The provisions to which the hon. and learned Gentleman referred had some limitations, which we belie...
Jeremy Wright | 447 c539 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General mentioned that the maximum sentence for the offence would be five years, which...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c539 (Link to this contribution) It is certainly right that some of the developments in the global economy that have so benefited our...
Keith Vaz | 447 c538-9 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend will know that on 1 June EU Ministers met and agreed a formula for sharing evidence b...
John Bercow | 447 c536 (Link to this contribution) The incidence of credit card fraud, not merely by customers against retailers but often the other wa...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c536 (Link to this contribution) We certainly need to look at the full range of penalties. Crime involving fraud, particularly cheque...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c534-6 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. The Bill will reform the criminal law on fr...
Dominic Grieve | 447 c537 (Link to this contribution) I understand the thrust of the clause, to which we will obviously have to return in Committee, but i...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c537 (Link to this contribution) We need to ensure that we have a view about how a relationship is created. It can be created in vari...
Chris Bryant | 447 c537-8;447 c537 (Link to this contribution) Might that include the position of a friend? For instance, if I am selling something to a friend of ...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c537 (Link to this contribution) The Law Commission cogently set out its views on how this relationship should be formed. In each pro...
David Heath | 447 c537 (Link to this contribution) I wish to make exactly the same point. I am unclear as to why the expression"““he is expected to saf...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c537 (Link to this contribution) Of course, the duty may well go beyond a mere fiduciary one; other duties could be encompassed. We c...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c538 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that that would arise under this limb of the offence, but it would depend on the circ...
John Bercow | 447 c538 (Link to this contribution) I note the characteristically cautious reply that the Solicitor-General gave to the hon. Member for ...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c538 (Link to this contribution) In fact, my hon. Friend should perhaps look at clause 3 rather than clause 4, because the former cov...
Dominic Grieve | 447 c538 (Link to this contribution) The nature of the Bill probably means that the detail is the most important aspect, but it is true t...
Mike O'Brien | 447 c538 (Link to this contribution) There is some overlap and I say again that it would depend on the circumstances between the two frie...
Chris Bryant | 447 c571 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making a case to show how the world of fraud has changed in recent years, but ...
Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 447 c571 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend believe that magistrates take a suitably robust approach to the obnoxious practi...
Lord Coaker | 447 c581-2 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting and important point but it is not one for the law on fraud. The hon. Member ...
Dominic Grieve | 447 c537 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General has used the precise expression ““a fiduciary duty””, which would already prov...
David Heath | 447 c556-7 (Link to this contribution) I join in the general welcome for the Bill and for the way in which the Solicitor-General and the ho...
Subjects
Disclosure of information Contracts Abuse Crime Conspiracy Criminal law Corruption Common law Credit cards Fraud Jurisdiction International cooperation Internet Organised crime Prosecutions Misrepresentation Victims Right of silence Sunset clauses
Legislation
Fraud Bill (HL) 2005-06
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk