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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Tuesday, 8 January 2008, in the House of Lords.

Climate Change Bill [HL]

Climate Change Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage third day. Clauses 6 to 12 agreed to. Part 1 of 2 records.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
697 c741-806 
Session
2007-08
Department
Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Rooker | 697 c796-7 (Link to this contribution) As there is some confusion here I shall start, at the risk of repeating myself after the last debate...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 697 c795 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to intervene on my noble friend again on the word ““method””. They may well c...
Show all contributions (137)
Lord Dixon-Smith | 697 c795 (Link to this contribution) Surely it is completely inconceivable that the Secretary of State, whoever it may be at the time, wo...
Lord Hunt of Chesterton | 697 c795-6 (Link to this contribution) I used to run the Met Office. We produced weather statistics and government Ministers would say that...
Lord Woolmer of Leeds | 697 c794 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise. Could the noble Lord refer me to which of the amendments on which page he is ...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 697 c794 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Clause 12(2)(b) states: ““identify the methods””. The amendment refers to ““approved by””....
Lord Woolmer of Leeds | 697 c795 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I cannot disagree. But that is quite different from this statement of facts that have to b...
Lord Bridges | 697 c795 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am tempted to refer to a statement made by the Government a few clauses back. The outcom...
Lord Woolmer of Leeds | 697 c794 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I suppose that I should put a contradictory point of view. Unusually, I agree with the nob...
Baroness Byford | 697 c794 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support my noble friend. I do not support the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, because c...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 697 c793 (Link to this contribution) I like this amendment a lot. It takes us back to the earlier debate on the powers of the climate cha...
Lord Teverson | 697 c793-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am in a strange position in this area. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, mentioned the word “...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 697 c792 (Link to this contribution) In which case, I have to ask the Minister’s forgiveness. I have managed to clarify the situation in ...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 697 c792-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 67: 67: Clause 12, page 6, line 24, at end insert— ““( ) The statement must be...
Lord Rooker | 697 c792 (Link to this contribution) I feel really hurt about this. I went way beyond my brief. I actually explained, almost, how the nob...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 697 c791 (Link to this contribution) It may appear to be a reasonable response, but the reason why these amendments may be important is b...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 697 c791 (Link to this contribution) I listened closely to what my noble friend said. I did not understand him to say that he is totally ...
Lord Teverson | 697 c805 (Link to this contribution) I apologise that my amendment does not say what I meant it to say. As the amendment stands, I would ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c805-6 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord will recognise that I am obliged to respond to the amendment before the Committee. Th...
Lord Teverson | 697 c806 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his response, but to be honest I do not buy it, because multinational corpo...
Lord Rooker | 697 c806 (Link to this contribution) I suggest that this would be an appropriate moment to break and that we do not return until 8.37 pm....
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 697 c803-4 (Link to this contribution) This has again been a useful debate. It will perhaps be useful to bear in mind what we have said abo...
Lord Rooker | 697 c803 (Link to this contribution) We appreciate the spirit of what the noble Lord seeks to achieve. I repeat that we are keen to ensur...
Duke of Montrose | 697 c804 (Link to this contribution) The suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, is certainly interesting. It would help the Committ...
Lord Teverson | 697 c804 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 75: 75: Clause 12, page 7, line 10, leave out from ““than”” to end and insert ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c804-5 (Link to this contribution) I understand the motivation behind the amendment, which the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, made clear in...
Lord Woolmer of Leeds | 697 c801 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister responds perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, will clarify two matters. First, i...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 697 c801-2 (Link to this contribution) The amendment does indeed contain the phrase, "““and recommendations for new measures, proposals or ...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 697 c800-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 70: 70: Clause 12, page 6, line 33, at end insert— ““( ) It must contain a com...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 697 c801 (Link to this contribution) This is an interesting amendment because if the figures produced by the Committee on Climate Change ...
Lord Teverson | 697 c802-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall probably embarrass the noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, by agreeing with him again in this area. I ...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 697 c798 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 68: 68: Clause 12, page 6, line 28, at end insert— ““( ) state the amount for ...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 697 c800 (Link to this contribution) You win one and you lose one. I thought Amendment No. 74 was quite simple and straightforward. Obvio...
Earl of Selborne | 697 c798-9 (Link to this contribution) In the debate on the previous amendment the Minister rightly pointed out that there was an internati...
Lord Rooker | 697 c790-1 (Link to this contribution) I am in trouble here. Regarding the final points made by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, about having...
Earl of Selborne | 697 c789 (Link to this contribution) I suspect that the Minister will tell us that it would be unusual to stipulate the need for an amend...
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 697 c789 (Link to this contribution) My remarks will be extremely brief. I support the amendments moved by my noble friends for the very ...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 697 c791 (Link to this contribution) Probably for the first time in the Committee’s discussions, I feel really disappointed by the Minist...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c787 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl, Lord Caithness, has expressed things in precisely the same terms as I would be likel...
Lord Teverson | 697 c789 (Link to this contribution) This seems to be a very good way of ensuring that these reports are debated within Parliament. We ar...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 697 c788-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 66: 66: Clause 12, page 6, line 22, after ““Parliament”” insert ““and table a ...
Duke of Montrose | 697 c788 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I do not feel able to go along with the Minister one bit. Here, I am drawing to the...
Lord Rooker | 697 c784-5 (Link to this contribution) It was not in that part, but it was elsewhere. I do not want anyone to get the impression that susta...
Baroness Young of Old Scone | 697 c784 (Link to this contribution) I very much welcome the noble Lord pointing that out. All I ask is for that provision to be put in t...
Earl Cathcart | 697 c785 (Link to this contribution) I thought that I was going to be clean-bowled with the one contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Camp...
Lord Crickhowell | 697 c785 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that he was not sure what the Joint Committee on the draft Bill had said on this m...
Earl of Caithness | 697 c786-7 (Link to this contribution) For once, I disagree with my noble friend. For better or worse, we have devolution. I was not in fav...
Duke of Montrose | 697 c785-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 63: 63: Clause 11, page 6, line 18, at end insert— ““( ) The authorities refer...
Baroness Young of Old Scone | 697 c783 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether I could suggest a way forward, as I have probably managed to insert more sustainabl...
Lord Teverson | 697 c782-3 (Link to this contribution) I think that I understand the reasoning, purpose and motivation behind the amendment, but if we read...
Lord Rooker | 697 c784 (Link to this contribution) In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Young, I say that in my back pocket is Clause 49, the progra...
Lord Dixon-Smith | 697 c784 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment of my noble friend in one sense, but in another sense it is the right amendm...
Lord Crickhowell | 697 c782 (Link to this contribution) I was going to generally support my noble friend’s amendment for two reasons, but I am bound to say ...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 697 c781-2 (Link to this contribution) I am concerned about this amendment; it worries me. The noble Earl will know that I have sought to b...
Earl Cathcart | 697 c780-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 61: 61: Clause 11, page 6, line 15, at end insert— ““( ) The proposals and pol...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 697 c780 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lady Byford perhaps sought to address the point that it is quite difficult, when con...
Lord Rooker | 697 c780 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Baroness is asking for the Bill to be so prescriptive that policy-making gets interfere...
Baroness Byford | 697 c779 (Link to this contribution) I would like to support my noble friend’s amendment but I am getting quite concerned by the Minister...
Lord Rooker | 697 c779 (Link to this contribution) I was conscious as I made that point that I had got the line wrong—it is line 5 but it is the first ...
Lord Crickhowell | 697 c778-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for giving way. Does not what he has just said apply exactly and precisely to...
Lord Rooker | 697 c778 (Link to this contribution) The way in which Bills are drafted changed some time ago. Clause titles always used to be set at the...
Earl of Caithness | 697 c778 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend’s dilemma would be solved if the Government accepted the amendment and altered the p...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 697 c777 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. Perhaps I should have taken more time. This is all part and parcel of the debate that we ha...
Lord Teverson | 697 c776 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may just say to the noble Lord that I understand his problem.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 697 c777-8 (Link to this contribution) My intervention will be modest, technical and brief. I in no way disagree with my noble friends on t...
Earl of Caithness | 697 c777 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend, who has said what I was going to say on my Amendment No. 64A, which is gr...
Baroness Hayman | 697 c776 (Link to this contribution) Is Amendment No. 60 not moved? Are we sure?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 697 c776 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that response. Words mean everything and nothing, really. I suppose that th...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 697 c776 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 60: 60: Clause 11, page 6, line 15, at end insert— ““( ) The Secretary of Stat...
Earl of Caithness | 697 c776 (Link to this contribution) I think that my noble friend might want to move this amendment.
Lord Jay of Ewelme | 697 c774 (Link to this contribution) I was going to make almost exactly the same point as the one that the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, just...
Lord Oxburgh | 697 c774 (Link to this contribution) Neither Clause 11 in its present form nor the amendment quite captures the fact that you can have mu...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 697 c770 (Link to this contribution) There are various ways in which this issue can be approached; for instance, by questions and by deba...
Lord Teverson | 697 c770-1 (Link to this contribution) The clause is very open. This matter could indeed be dealt with in all kinds of ways, but there need...
Lord Crickhowell | 697 c771 (Link to this contribution) Surely there is an even stronger reason for the time limit to be included, which will be contained i...
Duke of Montrose | 697 c771 (Link to this contribution) We fully support measures to make sure that carbon budgets and proposals are set quickly and efficie...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c771-2 (Link to this contribution) I share the reservations of the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, about the amendment. I assure the ...
Lord Teverson | 697 c772 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his reply and for some comfort that he may understand the need for discipli...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 697 c772-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 58: 58: Clause 11, page 6, line 13, leave out ““report setting out”” and inser...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 697 c773-4 (Link to this contribution) I shall intervene briefly to speak tangentially to the amendment, as this offers me a peg to put a t...
Lord Crickhowell | 697 c774 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support my noble friend’s amendment for the reasons that I indicated when I spoke briefly...
Lord Teverson | 697 c770 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 57: 57: Clause 11, page 6, line 11, leave out from beginning to ““the”” in lin...
Lord Teverson | 697 c770 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his reply and further explanation. It is still extremely important for this...
Lord May of Oxford | 697 c767-8 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may speak briefly in support of the biodiversity amendment, but first I declare an interes...
Earl Cathcart | 697 c768 (Link to this contribution) We broadly agree with the spirit of these amendments, but that our way of going about it is better. ...
Baroness Byford | 697 c766-7 (Link to this contribution) I have often raised this matter in debates. When we debated the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill—w...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 697 c767 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend’s amendment. I can understand why the Minister would make the intervention...
Baroness Byford | 697 c769 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way and for clarifying that for me. I assumed that was the ...
Lord Rooker | 697 c769-70 (Link to this contribution) That was the other part of my argument. We are very reluctant to add to the list because most of the...
Lord Rooker | 697 c768-9 (Link to this contribution) For the avoidance of any doubt, my earlier intervention was not in any way a criticism of the noble ...
Lord Crickhowell | 697 c764-6 (Link to this contribution) Like the noble Lord, I could have made my remarks on the previous group debated, but perhaps chose n...
Lord Teverson | 697 c764 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that intervention, which is extremely useful. I understand that. However, I...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 697 c766 (Link to this contribution) I shall intervene only briefly on this amendment to return to the issue raised by the noble Lord, Lo...
Lord Rooker | 697 c763 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps it would be helpful if I added a further paragraph on that. If we ask ourselves how we know ...
Duke of Montrose | 697 c763 (Link to this contribution) This has certainly been an interesting debate; it has shone a light on to this issue from many diffe...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 697 c761 (Link to this contribution) Why does the noble Earl say that the, "““matters to be taken into account””," defined in subsection...
Earl of Caithness | 697 c761 (Link to this contribution) They are negative in the sense that they are taking into account the consequence of what is being su...
Lord Lea of Crondall | 697 c762-3 (Link to this contribution) I was going to intervene later on a related matter, but it has come up now. I should like to make a ...
Earl of Caithness | 697 c761 (Link to this contribution) Please let me finish my sentence. It would be much easier for the British public who have to buy the...
Earl of Caithness | 697 c761 (Link to this contribution) Can we have another go at this? I do not think that the Minister fully understands what my noble fri...
Lord Rooker | 697 c760-1 (Link to this contribution) It is. There are lots of committees. I am sticking to the Committee on Climate Change at the moment....
Lord Clinton-Davis | 697 c760 (Link to this contribution) The interpretation that my noble friend puts on this is consonant with other legislation. It is not ...
Lord Jay of Ewelme | 697 c759 (Link to this contribution) Like the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, when I was considering the amendment, I thought about the relationsh...
Baroness Young of Old Scone | 697 c758-9 (Link to this contribution) I support Amendments Nos. 48 and 49A, although Amendments Nos. 50B, 51A and 53A are a bridge too far...
Lord May of Oxford | 697 c759 (Link to this contribution) The intention of the wording in the Bill is not inimical to that of the amendment, but I am in favou...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 697 c755 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is supporting my case, in fact. If technologies became available that could bring for...
Lord Teverson | 697 c755-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her reply but I disagree completely. I do not wish to pursue this and I am ...
Duke of Montrose | 697 c756-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 48: 48: Clause 10, page 5, line 36, at end insert— ““( ) the actual and expect...
Earl of Caithness | 697 c757 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend most strongly on this. This is one of the most important amendments, and I...
Lord Hunt of Chesterton | 697 c757-8 (Link to this contribution) I support the spirit of this amendment, but I have been in this House long enough to look at the sma...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 697 c754 (Link to this contribution) We were interested to hear the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, explain the amendment. It would change the...
Lord Teverson | 697 c753-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 43: 43: Clause 8, page 4, line 44, leave out ““with a view to meeting”” and in...
Lord Dixon-Smith | 697 c755 (Link to this contribution) I understood the Minister to say that the 2042 budget could not be set to meet the 2050 target. My i...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 697 c754-5 (Link to this contribution) I would dearly love to say that I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, and be very quick about it...
Lord Rooker | 697 c750-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the debate. I do not want to be accused of not listening because I agree with many...
Baroness Byford | 697 c752 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend responds to the Minister perhaps I may raise a couple of issues. I am pleased...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 697 c749-50 (Link to this contribution) I have not joined in this discussion before but I listened to the debate with great interest. The no...
Lord Puttnam | 697 c750 (Link to this contribution) I urge the Minister to regard this amendment as an entirely honourable and almost noble attempt to s...
Lord Rooker | 697 c752 (Link to this contribution) I do not know about previous Bills but the House has its procedures. We are not revising a Bill that...
Lord Teverson | 697 c752-3 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, that the Bill is an indicator of the way in which politic...
Lord May of Oxford | 697 c748-9 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak in support of what I conceive to be the essence of this amendment: the preservation of...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 697 c746-8 (Link to this contribution) If you want to concentrate the committee’s mind on the need to act responsibly, you have to give it ...
Lord Teverson | 697 c746 (Link to this contribution) I will break in on a good quality debate among those on the Conservative Benches. The noble Lord is ...
Lord Dixon-Smith | 697 c745-6 (Link to this contribution) It is always very difficult when two noble friends present obverse and reverse sides of the same arg...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 697 c741-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 39: 39: Clause 6, page 3, line 39, at end insert— ““( ) That power may only be...
Lord Crickhowell | 697 c743-5 (Link to this contribution) I was not going to follow my noble friend immediately because I thought that other Members of the Co...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 697 c797-8 (Link to this contribution) The Minister talks about duplication but has already admitted that there exists a body which is effe...
Earl of Selborne | 697 c794 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. I cannot envisage how the climate change co...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c799-800 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for those last remarks from the noble Earl, Lord Selborne. He identifies the difficult...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 697 c753 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his positive and genuine response to the weight of the arguments that Membe...
Lord Puttnam | 697 c789 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support this amendment. It is perfectly sound and all of a piece with the overall recommenda...
Lord Rooker | 697 c764 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to intervene—it is a habit from the other place—because the noble Lord is moving his amen...
Lord Rooker | 697 c759-60 (Link to this contribution) This has been a useful debate. I was almost going to rest my case on the fact that my noble friend L...
Lord Rooker | 697 c741 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 697 c775 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the last two noble Lords who spoke because they represented the Government’s thinki...
Lord Teverson | 697 c763-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 50: 50: Clause 10, page 5, line 40, after ““decision”” insert ““, whether posi...
Subjects
Devolved matters Climate change Carbon dioxide Biodiversity Environment protection Northern Ireland Pollution control Scotland Standards Wales Carbon emissions Climate Change Committee Carbon budgets
Legislation
Climate Change Bill (HL) 2007-08
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk