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Debate on Thursday, 24 April 2008, in the House of Commons, led by Liam Byrne. The answering member was Damian Green.

Points-Based Immigration System

Debate on a motion to consider a Points-Based Immigration System.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
474 c1514-72 
Session
2007-08
Department
Home Office
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Proceeding contributions
Liam Byrne | 474 c1526-7, (corrigendum) 550;474 c1526-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall certainly try my utmost, although I may not get it right on every occasion. In creating the ...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1524-5, (corrigendum) 550;474 c1524-5 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely agree with that point, which is not unrelated to that raised by my hon. Friend the Memb...
Show all contributions (141)
Damian Green | 474 c1530, (corrigendum) 550;474 c1530 (Link to this contribution) Since we are all happily quoting the Lords report, I shall go along with the Minister and quote the ...
Damian Green | 474 c1528-9, (corrigendum) 550;474 c1528-9 (Link to this contribution) It is always enlightening to hear the Minister describe and defend the Government's immigration poli...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1569-72 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the fact that we have been able to have this debate. I said at the outset that I thought I...
Pete Wishart | 474 c1567-9 (Link to this contribution) In the usual last few minutes available to us in the minority parties, I will try to put a couple of...
Peter Bone | 474 c1566-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall be brief because I know that another hon. Member wishes to speak. We have heard much today ...
Lord Lilley | 474 c1563-5 (Link to this contribution) No, I have not, but I will read it with great interest in due course. I doubt whether it is as autho...
Keith Vaz | 474 c1563 (Link to this contribution) I had this exchange with the hon. Member for Ashford (Damian Green) earlier. The right hon. Gentlema...
Kerry McCarthy | 474 c1565-6 (Link to this contribution) The Minister began his opening remarks by saying that his grandparents were immigrants to this count...
Lord Lilley | 474 c1563 (Link to this contribution) Well, if they are not earning the profit, someone else is getting the profit from employing people, ...
Lord Lilley | 474 c1563 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman is saying that a marginal element of the £6 billion is a net contribution that...
Lord Lilley | 474 c1561-3 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore), who speaks with great knowledge...
Lord Lilley | 474 c1563 (Link to this contribution) I would have thought that the hon. Gentleman was a good enough economist to know that value added eq...
Chris Huhne | 474 c1563 (Link to this contribution) Is the right hon. Gentleman not forgetting the element of profit in the income measure? That could s...
Andrew Dismore | 474 c1557-61 (Link to this contribution) I want primarily to speak on behalf of the Chinese community. I speak as the chair of the all-party ...
Speaker | 474 c1557 (Link to this contribution) Order. There is less than an hour left for contributions from Back Benchers. I ask hon. Members to b...
James Clappison | 474 c1557 (Link to this contribution) I have no problem with immigration, still less with immigrants, and I respect the hard work and the ...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1557 (Link to this contribution) I will reflect in my concluding remarks on the points that the hon. Gentleman makes, but I intervene...
James Clappison | 474 c1557 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the Minister if he is prepared to explain why he did that.
James Clappison | 474 c1556-7 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman would find, if he did some research, that certainly the Huguenots ca...
Chris Huhne | 474 c1556 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman may well be right about the past few decades, but he might be disregarding previo...
Barry Gardiner | 474 c1552-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Of course, I have not yet said that because he pre-empted me...
Julian Lewis | 474 c1537 (Link to this contribution) I was totally baffled by the Government's stance. As my hon. Friend has said, those people were clea...
Damian Green | 474 c1537-8 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I rather agree with that, and I see it in other groups, too—not just highly skilled migrants bu...
Barry Gardiner | 474 c1535 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Damian Green | 474 c1535-7 (Link to this contribution) No, I have given way enough, and others will want to contribute. The Minister has been more candid ...
Andrew Dismore | 474 c1535 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman's case is built on an overall cap that is not broken down in any way. It is somew...
Damian Green | 474 c1535 (Link to this contribution) The level of analysis that we provide will be the same as—or, I hope, better than—that which the Min...
Damian Green | 474 c1538-9 (Link to this contribution) I have taken up enough time. I am sure that the hon. Lady will have a chance to make other points la...
Damian Green | 474 c1538 (Link to this contribution) I am not saying that such people should be given precedence, but those who are in the country and wo...
Kerry McCarthy | 474 c1538 (Link to this contribution) I am slightly confused. My understanding of working holidaymakers is that they are in the UK to have...
Damian Green | 474 c1534 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has been making that point repeatedly, and it took particular chutzpah for him to do so...
James Clappison | 474 c1535;474 c1534-5 (Link to this contribution) Rather than getting so excited about whether there is a cap, would not it be better for the Minister...
Keith Vaz | 474 c1534 (Link to this contribution) I asked the hon. Gentleman this yesterday in a different forum, but will he tell the House what exac...
Damian Green | 474 c1535 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to weary the House by saying this, but we will give the answer at the appropriate time...
Chris Huhne | 474 c1535 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Hertsmere (Mr. Clappison) has usefully highlighted the contribution that net imm...
Damian Green | 474 c1535 (Link to this contribution) That is why I am happy to say that we cannot carry on with the rate of change and that we will there...
Damian Green | 474 c1535 (Link to this contribution) That is the same question again.
James Clappison | 474 c1548 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is putting forward a ridiculous policy. People cannot be admitted to this country...
Chris Huhne | 474 c1548 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that EU law would apply in this case, as we are talking about—[Interruption.] No, if w...
Peter Bone | 474 c1546 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point. Is not one of the problems with the points-based system t...
Chris Huhne | 474 c1546-8 (Link to this contribution) The chances of our having a huge influx from the European Union in normal years are minimal. However...
Barry Gardiner | 474 c1549-51 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the Minister not only on listening over the past few weeks to representations from co...
Jenny Willott | 474 c1551 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not share the concern that I and a number of other Members have that even fo...
Pete Wishart | 474 c1548 (Link to this contribution) I may be able to help the hon. Gentleman a little. One feature of the Australian system is that the ...
Chris Huhne | 474 c1548-9 (Link to this contribution) I am interested to hear that point. There is clear evidence that there are substantial differences f...
Chris Huhne | 474 c1552 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman rightly mentions IT consultancy's extraordinary impact on and importance to the I...
Barry Gardiner | 474 c1551-2 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady makes a fair point; in fact, she makes the Minister's point—I am glad that a Liberal D...
Keith Vaz | 474 c1539-40 (Link to this contribution) It always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ashford (Damian Green). He spoke for 40 minutes b...
Lord Lilley | 474 c1540 (Link to this contribution) I should say that I am the right hon. Member not for St. Albans, but for Hitchin and Harpenden. When...
Keith Vaz | 474 c1540-4 (Link to this contribution) I was not misleading the House in any way, even inadvertently. The process began when we joined the ...
Andrew Dismore | 474 c1544 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Keith Vaz | 474 c1544 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend may be about to invite the Minister to Hendon, but I made my offer first.
Andrew Dismore | 474 c1544 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Minister has already accepted my offer to visit Chinatown and spend some time in ...
Keith Vaz | 474 c1544-5 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to hear that. Whatever the kitchen, we do not have a problem. I invite the Minister to ...
Keith Vaz | 474 c1545 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is a Member whom I respect on such issues, but I urge him not to play the numbers...
Chris Huhne | 474 c1545 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to follow the right hon. Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz). He made a number of go...
Chris Huhne | 474 c1545-6 (Link to this contribution) We should always be careful about the numbers game, and the right hon. Gentleman is correct to make ...
Lord Lilley | 474 c1527 (Link to this contribution) The Minister seems to be saying that we should rely on a points-based system to restrict immigration...
Keith Vaz | 474 c1529 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman is citing reports, I wonder whether he has had a chance to examine the Work Fo...
Damian Green | 474 c1529 (Link to this contribution) We can all reach for our favourite ports, but I am quite happy to be on the same side as Professor R...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1528 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend's line of argument is absolutely right. The unfortunate reality is that we cannot tru...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1527 (Link to this contribution) No, I was merely alluding to the fact that under the free movement directive EU citizens can exercis...
Phyllis Starkey | 474 c1527-8 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister agree that the key issue in deciding between a points-based system and a cap is th...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1527 (Link to this contribution) Not really, because the ambit of the points system would extend to the 101,000 people coming in for ...
Peter Bone | 474 c1527 (Link to this contribution) I think that the Minister might be slightly wrong on the EU issue. He said there could be no restric...
Julian Lewis | 474 c1526 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether I anticipate the Minister's next remarks correctly, but will he say a word or ...
William Cash | 474 c1525 (Link to this contribution) I was a little disappointed by the Minister's response to my point about local authority statistics....
Liam Byrne | 474 c1526 (Link to this contribution) Before I do so, however, I will give way to the hon. Member for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis).
Diane Abbott | 474 c1525 (Link to this contribution) Returning to the subject of ethnic restaurants, the Minister said that second-generation south Asian...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1525 (Link to this contribution) I was never good enough to work at McKinsey, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but my point was not about second, ...
Kerry McCarthy | 474 c1525 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister explain what analyses have been done so far? I have been told by restaurateurs in ...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1525 (Link to this contribution) It is important not to prejudge. Having set up the independent Migration Advisory Committee to tell ...
Damian Green | 474 c1531-2 (Link to this contribution) The problem in Scotland is that for many years, it has been under the yoke of Labour Governments tha...
Pete Wishart | 474 c1531 (Link to this contribution) I know that the hon. Gentleman is an enthusiastic champion of his policy of a cap, and he has probab...
Phyllis Starkey | 474 c1533 (Link to this contribution) I agree about the problems that rapid population changes pose for the funding formulae, but does the...
Damian Green | 474 c1533 (Link to this contribution) It certainly causes a problem, although such movements are easier to capture. There are general prob...
Speaker | 474 c1532 (Link to this contribution) Order. Before the hon. Gentleman responds, I appreciate that these are complicated, detailed and int...
Damian Green | 474 c1532-3 (Link to this contribution) The way to stop that, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is for me to be more ruthless when it comes to refusing in...
Damian Green | 474 c1533-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady makes a face at that. I completely agree with her, as I interpret that as an acknowled...
Chris Huhne | 474 c1529-30 (Link to this contribution) I would not like to leave the subject of the House of Lords report without pointing out one fact. I ...
Damian Green | 474 c1530 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is now going to tell me that that is the difference between two large numbers and that...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1531;474 c1530-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman would accept, I think, that one of the best indicators of contribution towards GD...
Damian Green | 474 c1531 (Link to this contribution) All the evidence that I have seen—I am sure that the Minister has seen it too—suggests that, as one ...
James Clappison | 474 c1531 (Link to this contribution) May I take my hon. Friend back to the intervention on him by the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Hu...
Damian Green | 474 c1531 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is exactly right. Of course, famously, if one assembles two economists, one will get ...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1523 (Link to this contribution) That would be a troubling implication, which is why I am deliberately drawing attention to the fact ...
Barry Gardiner | 474 c1523 (Link to this contribution) I want to return to the point that my hon. Friend just raised about his officials not suggesting tha...
Chris Huhne | 474 c1523 (Link to this contribution) The Minister makes an eminently reasonable point, but if the House—and, I suspect, many of his Back ...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1523 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the hon. Gentleman.
Lord Lilley | 474 c1523-4 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister recognise that, to economists, the very concept of a shortage in a free market is ...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1523 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The work that we have to do in this area through our migrati...
Phyllis Starkey | 474 c1524 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister acknowledge that in discussing the ethnic minority restaurant trade, it is importa...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1524 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is right in much of what he says, having studied the question in some depth...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1522 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. I congratulate my hon. Friend on his work not only on understanding the detail of the pr...
Andrew Dismore | 474 c1521-2 (Link to this contribution) Occupation No. 5434 refers to cooks and chefs, of which there might not be a shortage in the country...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1520-1 (Link to this contribution) I look forward to hearing the hon. Gentleman's policy alternatives. However, he cannot ignore the fa...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1522 (Link to this contribution) I have not heard my officials or any others telling anybody that they need to recruit people from pa...
Diane Abbott | 474 c1522 (Link to this contribution) No, that is what the Department is saying. Those restaurateurs are insisting that to have the delici...
Diane Abbott | 474 c1522 (Link to this contribution) I would like to amplify what my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) said about the conce...
John Hayes | 474 c1516 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is, as ever, courteous and he is making a measured case. However, he made a point about...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1516 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. The evidence of ethnic minorities' contribution to the richness of our cult...
Andrew Dismore | 474 c1516 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the main benefits of migration has been to enrich substantiall...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1514-5 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That this House has considered the matter of a points-based immigration system." I a...
Pete Wishart | 474 c1515 (Link to this contribution) In his journeys around all parts of the United Kingdom, has the Minister come to recognise and appre...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1515 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I shall not quickly forget the meeting that I had in Newcast...
Keith Vaz | 474 c1515 (Link to this contribution) I have paid tribute to the fact that the Minister has been all over the country meeting communities....
Liam Byrne | 474 c1515 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend knows that I have the privilege of representing a constituency whose population...
William Cash | 474 c1517 (Link to this contribution) I am sure the Minister knows that a great deal of the statistical basis that we use is based on samp...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1517 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has guessed the point that I was about to make. The House of Lords criticised the ide...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1516 (Link to this contribution) This will not make me universally popular, but I should say that since I was asked to take up this r...
Chris Huhne | 474 c1518 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister accept that there is public disquiet about the statistics, partly, and perhaps unf...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1518 (Link to this contribution) The evidence that we gave to the House of Lords is that we estimated that there was some £6 billion ...
Peter Bone | 474 c1518 (Link to this contribution) I have had difficulty trying to work out economic migration into this country since 1997. What is th...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1517 (Link to this contribution) We need to take several measures in order to ensure that we have proper statistics. That was a valid...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1518 (Link to this contribution) I will resist the temptation to veer off brief. Suffice it to say that the starting point is for us ...
Peter Bone | 474 c1518 (Link to this contribution) I obviously did not make my question clear. I was asking not about the economic benefit but about th...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1518 (Link to this contribution) I have brought along the precise cumulative totals. The figures for 2006, for example, show that 529...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1518-9 (Link to this contribution) That is a common argument. It is so common that economists have a name for it: the ““lump of labour”...
John Hayes | 474 c1518 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for a second bite of the cherry. Before he moves on from his macro-eco...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1519 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether it ever has been higher, but I think that there is now a degree of consensus b...
James Clappison | 474 c1519 (Link to this contribution) On the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes), the...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1519-20 (Link to this contribution) I think that I have just answered that question. I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to the degree...
James Clappison | 474 c1519 (Link to this contribution) It is still a very high figure. The figure of 190,000, which is the long-term projection for net mig...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1520 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman lives in the real world, and I acknowledge his long interest in and the careful a...
James Clappison | 474 c1520 (Link to this contribution) As a Back Bencher, I do not make policy. The Minister seems to imply that it is impossible to get th...
James Clappison | 474 c1520 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has been generous in giving way. However, the problem with his argument is that, in 199...
Damian Green | 474 c1534 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend will contain himself for a moment, let me say that the Government are, of course, ...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1526 (Link to this contribution) I always hate to disappoint the hon. Gentleman and should be delighted to have that conversation. I ...
Chris Huhne | 474 c1532 (Link to this contribution) I would not like to move on from the House of Lords report without our dealing with the matter that ...
Damian Green | 474 c1530 (Link to this contribution) That is completely right. I am glad that the hon. Lady thought of another point to make. It seems a ...
Liam Byrne | 474 c1522-3 (Link to this contribution) Before I give way, let me make one point about the three questions that the committee has to conside...
Phyllis Starkey | 474 c1516-7 (Link to this contribution) Before all those interventions, I think that the Minister was about to say that he agreed with the H...
James Clappison | 474 c1553-6 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the sincere remarks of the hon. Member for Brent, North (Barry Gardiner),...
Phyllis Starkey | 474 c1530 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman clearly understood the first time around, I was going to make a different poin...
Subjects
Immigration controls Immigration Entry clearances Migration Reform Work permits
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